Junk yard fuel injection

[spinem]

out with the quadrasuck in with the electrobogg.....

whose done it?

do's?... dont's? i never hear much about this idea.....

say i found an older camero 350 and wanted to put the fuel induction setup in my truck... possible?

[fencepost]

Try this
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ls1/index.html

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by spinem

out with the quadrasuck in with the electrobogg.....

whose done it?

do's?... dont's? i never hear much about this idea.....

say i found an older camero 350 and wanted to put the fuel induction setup in my truck... possible?

We have done it and it is very doable. A better choice for a donor is 87 to 92 truck - there are a lot more of them Camaros.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=317519

[87 STEPPER]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

We have done it and it is very doable. A better choice for a donor is 87 to 92 truck - there are a lot more of them Camaros.

Hold on there it all depends if hes talking about TBI OR TPI.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 87 STEPPER

Hold on there it all depends if hes talking about TBI OR TPI.

TBI or TPI from a swap project scope and actually doing the swap are not much different. Naturally, there are parts differences, fuel injection points are different, but from a swap perspective both systems share a lot in common. For a novice swapper TBI is easier, low cost and readily available. TPI system can be pricier and depending who you talk to can offer HP performance. TBI does the job in dd truck, and easier to work with and can do adapted to a carburetor intake. Still, a solid engine is required - if you're low on compression or burning oil FI will not fix these problems. Also, to gain full advantage of TBI or TPI you must have leak free exhaust system and trany must be equipped with VSS.

//RF

[spinem]

thanks guys, this is all very interesting to me...VSS? whats that?

also, im worried that off the loaner truck, i will come across too many wiring ghosts...???

[joe231]

Originally Posted by spinem

thanks guys, this is all very interesting to me...VSS? whats that?

also, im worried that off the loaner truck, i will come across too many wiring ghosts...???

VSS=Vehicle Speed Sensor
If you can get the entire harness from a 88-91 square body truck, blazer, or 'burb you could swap the whole thing. The 88-89's have a non electronic speedo that have an optical sensor that works as a VSS (and should work with your current transmission), and the 90-91's have electronic speedo. so get the cluster too if you can.

Originally Posted by rfmaster

TBI or TPI from a swap project scope and actually doing the swap are not much different. Naturally, there are parts differences, fuel injection points are different, but from a swap perspective both systems share a lot in common. For a novice swapper TBI is easier, low cost and readily available. TPI system can be pricier and depending who you talk to can offer HP performance. TBI does the job in dd truck, and easier to work with and can do adapted to a carburetor intake. Still, a solid engine is required - if you're low on compression or burning oil FI will not fix these problems. Also, to gain full advantage of TBI or TPI you must have leak free exhaust system and trany must be equipped with VSS.

//RF

Not to 'jack the thread....
But, what are your thoughts about running an aluminum 4 barrel intake with TBI? You would loose the EGR, correct? Will it adversly effect the fuel mileage?
The reason I ask is I have the complete TBI set up from a '89 'burb (including the wiring harness and speedo with the optics attached to it) and would like to put it on my '82 CCSB (GM Goodwrench crate 350 with 2 piece rear main) for reliability and fuel mileage. It currently has an Edelbrock intake (not sure which one) and Holley 4160 600cfm carb, so just buying an adapter plate would be super easy, but is it worth it to swap over the TBI intake?
Thanks for all your input RF!!

[spinem]

would the speed sensor be necessary? wouldnt without it just create a rich condition at high rpm's?? im fine with rich!! haha

[fencepost]

JMO I have TBI on my 92 Z71 and I hate it, no power. I have thought more than once about swapping to Vortec heads and 600 Holley. For around $1800.00 you can go with an aftermarket TBI that looks like a Holley double pumper doesnt have to have a return line, can handle up to 4 or 500 hp and is self learning, heard lots of folks brag on them. The factory TBI is not performance friendly. Thats just me they are reliable, but that about the only nice thing I can think of.

[joe231]

there is lots of un-tapped potential in the TBI system

http://www.tbichips.com/truckmods.htm

[fencepost]

Originally Posted by joe231

there is lots of un-tapped potential in the TBI system

http://www.tbichips.com/truckmods.htm

I've studied up on it and have a 454 TBI I could use but the reward is not worth the effort to me. You can get the same result for less. JMO

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by joe231

VSS=Vehicle Speed Sensor
If you can get the entire harness from a 88-91 square body truck, blazer, or 'burb you could swap the whole thing. The 88-89's have a non electronic speedo that have an optical sensor that works as a VSS (and should work with your current transmission), and the 90-91's have electronic speedo. so get the cluster too if you can.




Not to 'jack the thread....
But, what are your thoughts about running an aluminum 4 barrel intake with TBI? You would loose the EGR, correct? Will it adversly effect the fuel mileage?
The reason I ask is I have the complete TBI set up from a '89 'burb (including the wiring harness and speedo with the optics attached to it) and would like to put it on my '82 CCSB (GM Goodwrench crate 350 with 2 piece rear main) for reliability and fuel mileage. It currently has an Edelbrock intake (not sure which one) and Holley 4160 600cfm carb, so just buying an adapter plate would be super easy, but is it worth it to swap over the TBI intake?
Thanks for all your input RF!!

It is doable with an adapter plate. If you dive through the TBI swap thread (more like cross country highway) you'll see couple of guys have used TBI to carb intake adapter plates. A word of caution - thin adapter plates tend to develop leaks! My preference is for 1/2" or thicker 6061 Aluminum plate with blind holes with studs for TB mounting. This way intake manifold vacuum stays put.
To those who say that TBI has no power - it is true for engines equipped with OE camshafts and factory ECM calibrations. Back in the day GM put peanut cams into LO3 and LO5 engines which by 3500RPM were done for all practical purposes. Over the years I have seen how well TBI responds to a mild RV camshaft and minor head work. Add a good flowing exhaust and you have an engine that will easily deliver low end torque and decent high RPM HP performance. The trick is to have ECM delivering enough fuel and timing both which can be accomplished. Stock SBC TB flows 490 CFM which is more than adequate for 98% of all driving that a typical street (dd) engine will see. The problem is usually inadequate fuel pressure. Factory calls for 9-13 psi range which is a very wide range - I like to see 14 to 16 PSI (and updated VE tables) as this makes for better performing engine.

If your 4-bbl intake does not have EGR provisions you'll have to program EPROM to disable EGR function - or other wise SES will be set - this will adversely affect driveability. Depending who you talk to EGR improves highway mileage by about .5 to 1.5 MPG.

//RF

[JRBailey]

check out painless wiring they have a vss that goes inline with speedo cable. The extra long harness alowed me to mount everything under the seat very neatly. I used GMs vortec tbi intake from summit with vortec heads. Good power, economy,very reliable

[joe231]

Originally Posted by fencepost

I've studied up on it and have a 454 TBI I could use but the reward is not worth the effort to me. You can get the same result for less. JMO

RF beat me to it

Originally Posted by rfmaster

It is doable with an adapter plate. If you dive through the TBI swap thread (more like cross country highway) you'll see couple of guys have used TBI to carb intake adapter plates. A word of caution - thin adapter plates tend to develop leaks! My preference is for 1/2" or thicker 6061 Aluminum plate with blind holes with studs for TB mounting. This way intake manifold vacuum stays put.
To those who say that TBI has no power - it is true for engines equipped with OE camshafts and factory ECM calibrations. Back in the day GM put peanut cams into LO3 and LO5 engines which by 3500RPM were done for all practical purposes. Over the years I have seen how well TBI responds to a mild RV camshaft and minor head work. Add a good flowing exhaust and you have an engine that will easily deliver low end torque and decent high RPM HP performance. The trick is to have ECM delivering enough fuel and timing both which can be accomplished. Stock SBC TB flows 490 CFM which is more than adequate for 98% of all driving that a typical street (dd) engine will see. The problem is usually inadequate fuel pressure. Factory calls for 9-13 psi range which is a very wide range - I like to see 14 to 16 PSI (and updated VE tables) as this makes for better performing engine.

If your 4-bbl intake does not have EGR provisions you'll have to program EPROM to disable EGR function - or other wise SES will be set - this will adversely affect driveability. Depending who you talk to EGR improves highway mileage by about .5 to 1.5 MPG.

//RF

Thanks for the info!
I believe the link I posted earlier burns custom chips, guess I'll have to look further....

[Justins76]

After having TBI on the 92 Firebird, I must say I am not impressed by it at all. I'd much rather have carb like my 86 Firebird or TPI injection.

[scotts62]

Originally Posted by Justins76

After having TBI on the 92 Firebird, I must say I am not impressed by it at all. I'd much rather have carb like my 86 Firebird or TPI injection.

Yeah i dont think TBI in a car would be fun at all...

[joe231]

does anyone read anymore

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by Justins76

After having TBI on the 92 Firebird, I must say I am not impressed by it at all. I'd much rather have carb like my 86 Firebird or TPI injection.

In 92 305 TBI in Firebird was rated 170HP@4000 RPM and 255 ft-lb/2500 RPM and typically came with very tall 2.73:1 rear end ratio. That combo was the moronic attempt by GM to achieve Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) to meet fed mandates. Thank you EPA!
The weakest link in a TBI equipped engines is not fuel injection part but a puny camshaft, some what restrictive heads and chocking exhaust system. Stock TBI cam at .050" lift is 179/194 deg (I/E) and maximum lift with 1.5:1 rocker ratio is 0.350/0.384 (I/E). It is outright pathetic, If you stick carb or even TPI on top of a TBI short block (with that cam) you will loose both torque and HP and end up with a bigger dog! I have seen several of these attempts at TBI to carb conversion fail miserably (half had other problems, but this is a family forum so I will keep it clean!)

The key to performance (we are talking solid dd, not a fire breathing monster) TBI is take advantage of what is readily available to any Joe:
mild camshaft (keep it middle of the page: LSA 112deg, lift at about 0.425 to 0.475, duration 195-205deg @ 0.050)
reworked heads (springs, mild port cleanup)
exhaust system (headers, cat after exhaust)
low restriction intake
ECM tuning and optimization.

The key advantage of TBI over TPI is that it is relatively low cost and readily available just about anywhere. I have to admit that I am regular JY visitor and many month go by when before I see a wrecked TPI camaro. Whereas TBI cars or trucks are there all the time.

//RF

[gchemist]

A LS1 conversion is hard to beat.
http://www.hotrodlane.cc/77chevytruck/77chevy.htm

[78-5.3]

Originally Posted by gchemist

A LS1 conversion is hard to beat.
http://www.hotrodlane.cc/77chevytruck/77chevy.htm

or 5.3 6.0 LSX better fuel economy , more HP ,lghter install

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by fencepost

JMO I have TBI on my 92 Z71 and I hate it, no power. I have thought more than once about swapping to Vortec heads and 600 Holley. For around $1800.00 you can go with an aftermarket TBI that looks like a Holley double pumper doesnt have to have a return line, can handle up to 4 or 500 hp and is self learning, heard lots of folks brag on them. The factory TBI is not performance friendly. Thats just me they are reliable, but that about the only nice thing I can think of.

The biggest problem with the stock TBI motor is that the cam is absolutely tiny. The heads don't flow too well either but can handle much more cam than the stock TBI motor came with. The TBI unit flows under 600 cfm so that will limit your power a little too but it can be bored out to flow much better.

I retrofit my 90 Z71 TBI 350 with a vortec truck roller cam setup I got at the wrecking yard and it made a huge difference in power. Cost me less than $200 to do including the complete gasket set for the engine and a hydraulic roller style timing set and the cam, lifters and spider retainer setup & pushrods.

[Justins76]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

In 92 305 TBI in Firebird was rated 170HP@4000 RPM and 255 ft-lb/2500 RPM and typically came with very tall 2.73:1 rear end ratio. That combo was the moronic attempt by GM to achieve Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) to meet fed mandates. Thank you EPA!
The weakest link in a TBI equipped engines is not fuel injection part but a puny camshaft, some what restrictive heads and chocking exhaust system. Stock TBI cam at .050" lift is 179/194 deg (I/E) and maximum lift with 1.5:1 rocker ratio is 0.350/0.384 (I/E). It is outright pathetic, If you stick carb or even TPI on top of a TBI short block (with that cam) you will loose both torque and HP and end up with a bigger dog! I have seen several of these attempts at TBI to carb conversion fail miserably (half had other problems, but this is a family forum so I will keep it clean!)

The key to performance (we are talking solid dd, not a fire breathing monster) TBI is take advantage of what is readily available to any Joe:
mild camshaft (keep it middle of the page: LSA 112deg, lift at about 0.425 to 0.475, duration 195-205deg @ 0.050)
reworked heads (springs, mild port cleanup)
exhaust system (headers, cat after exhaust)
low restriction intake
ECM tuning and optimization.

The key advantage of TBI over TPI is that it is relatively low cost and readily available just about anywhere. I have to admit that I am regular JY visitor and many month go by when before I see a wrecked TPI camaro. Whereas TBI cars or trucks are there all the time.

//RF

Thats true but the LG4 cam was pretty much the same as the TBI cam except that was a roller. From my driving experience I did not get any better mileage with the 1992 TBI over the 1986 carb firebird. If anything the TBI was worse in the city. Both at the time had 2.73 with a 700r4 and both were bought new.

True there is less maintenance and its low cost (not counting my fuel pump in the tank that goes out every 6 years and you have to drop the whole back end to get to the tank lol)

[fpjr0]

do the 5.3 6.0 swap I just finish mine... more power just my .02... did my junk yard special swap and well under 1900 all finish. can beat the just over 300hp with the 22+mpg...a/c and cruise control

[SatisTraction]

this is my set up too bad you are not closer.

http://jackson.craigslist.org/pts/1589430977.html

[68 TT]

A stock TPI system is pretty limited too and falls on its face around 4500 rpm. They just don't flow much air stock.

The parts to make it much better are out there but add up to a mountain of money in a hurry. Most TPI guys end up with a Holley short runner MPFI system that looks like the LT1 intake. If you don't have to meet emissions that is the way to go to keep your old engine but for the same cost you can do an LS engine swap now and get more HP and MPG out of the deal.