Power Steering Problems, Part 2 - Revenge of the Box

[Choptop32]

Ok... so after discussing my power steering box mounting problem, the movement of the box and the options for relocation... I did a little experiment before I just ripped into the project.

first off... the "crack" that was pictured here is not a crack at all, but a scratch in the paint:



so I got that going for me, which is nice. The frame aint cracked.


but I did a little filming before I took off the box... and this is what I found... the problem might be 2 fold... my box might be shot. There is a significant dead spot in the box with the engine running or not (pump working or not). You can see the amount of input shaft input that results in no output shaft movement. Keep in mind this is with both wheels off the ground, no resistantance in the system at all. Is she kaput?

YouTube- 65 Chevy Panel Power steering box

and the follow up question... if its kaput... what box is it (year, out of what)? who sells new/rebuilt ones?

I've got to take it off anyway to put the Capt.Fab plate on, so if I need a new one its no biggie... but if I dont have to spend the $ on a new/rebuilt one I wont... if this amount of play seems way out of spec I'll get a new box in a heartbeat and fix my problem... looking for answers... and a good handling truck

thanks in advance.

[padresag]

which is what I said about the crack, but the area at the top of the spacer looks suspicious. you will find some cracks anound the bolt holes as tuhis is where the flexing is coming from not the flat spot. broken strg box mounting bolts will also cause flexing
exhange strg box should be around $200.00 at the auto parts jobbers
ron

[Choptop32]

Originally Posted by padresag

which is what I said about the crack, but the area at the top of the spacer looks suspicious. you will find some cracks anound the bolt holes as tuhis is where the flexing is coming from not the flat spot. broken strg box mounting bolts will also cause flexing
exhange strg box should be around $200.00 at the auto parts jobbers
ron

what box is it?
what year?
out of what?

does the play in the box look like its kaput? or is that normal?

[Choptop32]

ok....here is some info on the power steering boxes....

FEATURE ARTICLE from Hemmings Motor News
Home>Contents
Saginaw Steering Boxes
Hemmings Motor News - MAY 1, 2007 - BY JIM O'CLAIR
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Reducing arm fatigue for over 40 years

Few mechanical parts have enjoyed a production life longer than the Saginaw power steering gearbox. First introduced in the early Sixties on full-size Oldsmobiles, the Saginaw gearbox has gone through many internal updates; however, it remained virtually the same and was the basis for General Motors power steering systems until the advent of rack and pinion steering. In some GM trucks, this unit is still used today. Saginaw gearboxes were also used in AMCs, Jeeps, Internationals and several Ford models; however, the Ford units will not interchange with any of the other applications.

The Saginaw gearbox is a rotary-valve type unit using recirculating ball bearings. They are referred to as recirculated ball-type because they use the same ball bearings on both the worm gear and the sector gear to reduce friction within the housing. You will often see this gearbox referred to as an "800" or "605" unit. The only major difference between these two units is how the pitman shaft is held into the unit. An 800 unit has a four-bolt cover on the top of the unit (the end of the shaft opposite the pitman arm spline). The 605 units use a single snap ring that holds a round cover into the top of the housing. GM also used two gearboxes, depending on the weight and size of the model. Station wagons, full-size cars and large front-wheel-drive cars used a heavy-duty gearbox usually identified by GM part number 5687962. These units had a 3.5-inch piston diameter, and the pitman shaft will turn anywhere from 3.5 to four turns between fully locked left and fully locked right. These units were rated at a 17.5:1 steering ratio. Mid-size and smaller models used a steering box tagged 5691676, and these units used a 3-inch piston. The travel on the smaller-piston unit was three to 3.5 turns lock to lock. The mid-size gearboxes were rated at a 14.4:1 steering ratio. Both the 3.5-inch and the 3-inch-bore gearboxes have a .813-inch input shaft diameter, and most will have 31 splines on the input shaft. You can substitute between both of these units. Aside from the mounting bolt pattern (most are 4-bolt mount but there are two different three-bolt mounts, as well), these units are all interchangeable. The more responsive 14.4:1 ratio gearboxes replaced the earlier 17.5:1 ratio boxes in most models by 1973. This is a good thing to remember when you begin your search for a replacement.

You can locate one of the basic Saginaw "800" series power steering boxes in one of these vehicles:

1964-'76 AMC
1961-'76 Cadillac, including
1963-'76 Eldorado
1964-'76 Buick and Pontiac full-size cars and Riviera
1973-'76 Regal
1975-'76 Skyhawk, Seville, Monza and Starfire
1965-'76 Chevrolet full-size cars
1967-'76 Camaro and 1968-'76 Nova
1964-'76 Chevelle, Cutlass, GTO, Grand Prix, Lemans, Ventura and Tempest
1971-'76 Vega and 1975 Pontiac Astre
1960-'76 Oldsmobile full-size cars including 1966-'76 Tornado
1971-'76 Jeep Cherokee, Wagoneer, Gladiator and J-series pickups
1972-'75 International Scout and Traveler

Many enthusiasts have also found that an easy way to upgrade the handling on your car is to convert to a Saginaw quick-ratio power-steering box. These were original equipment on some mid-size models, and they can be transplanted into most other GM vehicles, if you can locate one from your local pick-a-part. These gearboxes will improve the steering and handling for your car with a more responsive lower gear ratio and also reduce the steering wheel travel to 2.25 to three turns.

The 1969-'76 Camaros as well as 1964-'76 Chevelles, Malibus and Monte Carlos also used an optional quick ratio 12.7:1 unit, which will interchange with the higher ratio gearboxes. These are very popular units because they are an easy bolt-in performance conversion. The 1982-'96 S-10 pickups used a 14.0:1 ratio "605" series gearbox, which will interchange into earlier vehicles with some modification. Another option is to use late-model G or F Body units. They were original equipment on 1983-'88 Monte Carlo, 1983-'84 Hurst Olds, 1985-'87 Olds 442, and 1984-'87 Buick Grand National or T-Type. They are also 12.7:1 units and a little more difficult to find, but can be identified by a "YA" marking on the end cap (opposite where the steering column attaches) or by searching for cars with the F41 or Z65 suspension package. All of the Monte Carlo SS cars had these options. These units will reduce steering wheel revolutions from lock to lock down to 2.25 to 2.75 turns.

An important thing to remember when interchanging Saginaw gearboxes is to use your original pitman arm and idler arm if possible, to maintain the proper steering geometry. Different body styles have different length idler and pitman arms; for example, the F body arms are longer than those in an A or G body and could cause alignment and front-end clearance problems if used in different body styles. When interchanging between earlier and later GM gearboxes, you will notice the power steering hose fittings are not the same. Later fittings are metric and incorporate an O-ring, whereas all Sixties and most early Seventies units used the standard inverted-flare fittings. Auto parts stores sell standard thread to metric thread adapters in several different sizes that allow you to use your original hoses with the later-design metric gearboxes. The rag joint or steering gear coupler may also have to be changed. These can be obtained with the gearbox when being pulled from the donor car, or new ones are still available from the GM dealerships. The coupler off a 1977-and-up Chevy pickup (GM part number 7826542) works just fine to adapt the early-style steering shaft to the later model gearbox. Rag joints are also available from Lares Corporation, which can assist you with interchangeability questions and the purchase of freshly remanufactured power steering components as well.

Lares Corporation 1-800-334-5749

Finding a replacement gearbox for your General Motors car can be very easy because of the abundance of original units available that will readily interchange. Completing an upgrade to a quick ratio steering gearbox can also give your ride some additional handling and make a classic drive like a newer model.

Discuss this article in our forums

This article originally appeared in the MAY 1, 2007 issue of Hemmings Motor News.
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http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/...feature30.html



so its a Saginaw 800 box. Thats a good start... and I can now call up a parts place and ask for a new/rebuilt box out of XYZ car/truck. Thats what I needed.


Looks like I'll just take it off and replace it. Its throwing $200-300 at a problem and I dont know if its the fix... but its worth a try anyway. I've got to unbolt the old one to put the adapter plate on, so I might as well just take off the pump lines and disconnect the rag joint while I'm at it and throw a new box at it.

we'll see how it works.

[protrash64]

You can use any power box from a 1/2 ton truck to 1979. These boxes use flare fittings on the hoses. Boxes after '79 (1980+) will use hoses that have an O-ring seal.

Not sure the first year of power steering.......1967???

[Choptop32]

here is a little more info... from a CPP ebay auction for a rebuilt box:

It is a direct replacement on 67-72 C-10 applications as well as 60-66 with the use of our conversion brackets (See our other auctions)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...d=380191069467


another upside that I've found about my set up... its got a 80's era tilt steering column that does indeed have a colapsable coulmn... so there is no need to cut the shaft... I just need to push a little on the flange to size it to the right length. PRetty cool.

here are the pics of the "collapsible" part of the column.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...62&postcount=4

[Captainfab]

It's hard to tell in the video if the box itself is moving instead of the pitman arm. If the frame is solid and the box is not moving and there is just the delay between the input movement and the output movement, that can be adjusted some with the nut and allen socket bolt on top of the box.

[Choptop32]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

It's hard to tell in the video if the box itself is moving instead of the pitman arm. If the frame is solid and the box is not moving and there is just the delay between the input movement and the output movement, that can be adjusted some with the nut and allen socket bolt on top of the box.

box wasnt moving. The input shaft was moving, the pitman arm wasnt.

what does the nut and allen nut on top adjust?

[Captainfab]

I don't know exactly what is moves inside the box, but that's how you adjust the slack out of the box.....unless yours is maxed out already. If that's the case, it's time for a rebuilt box.

Originally Posted by Choptop32

box wasnt moving. The input shaft was moving, the pitman arm wasnt.

what does the nut and allen nut on top adjust?

[Choptop32]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

I don't know exactly what is moves inside the box, but that's how you adjust the slack out of the box.....unless yours is maxed out already. If that's the case, it's time for a rebuilt box.

which way is the adjustment? Does "in" equal less slack? or more?

I'll try putting the old box back on and adjusting it before I buy a new one.

what is the bleeding procedure?

[Captainfab]

Turning the allen socket bolt in the center IN should reduce the slack. I typically don't have any problems with bleeding the PS system. I just fill the reservior, start the engine and let the pump distribute the fluid. Then shut off the engine and refill. Start the engine again, and turn the wheels full left then full right. Repeat until the reservior is at the full mark. There will likely be some foam in the reservior, but that will dissapate after some driving, and cool down time.

Originally Posted by Choptop32

which way is the adjustment? Does "in" equal less slack? or more?

I'll try putting the old box back on and adjusting it before I buy a new one.

what is the bleeding procedure?

[Choptop32]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

Turning the allen socket bolt in the center IN should reduce the slack. I typically don't have any problems with bleeding the PS system. I just fill the reservior, start the engine and let the pump distribute the fluid. Then shut off the engine and refill. Start the engine again, and turn the wheels full left then full right. Repeat until the reservior is at the full mark. There will likely be some foam in the reservior, but that will dissapate after some driving, and cool down time.

danke mucho.

Will give it a shot in the morning and report back.

[padresag]

have the frt wheels off the ground to bleed the strg. go lock to lock on the steering about 4 or 5 times to clear the air
ron

[roofingbloke]

This is the exact smae problem i have, will follow this link to see how you get on..

[LILRED66]

GM Saginaw 605 power steering gear box from '68-'79 (SAE fittings) Chevy truck will do the trick. The car boxes are not set correct (mount on inside of frame rail), to work with these trucks.

[63sbssbbw]

Your old box:
It's hooped,so tear into it!,see how it works
The nut and allen bolt adjust gear lash (this lash setting is established at the factory or reman using in lbs/ft resistance btween output and input)
Inside should be 24 ball bearings 12 dark and 12 shiny ones,they are 1 thou different in size.
if your careful you may be able to determine if they were installed correctly(alternating 1 big 1 little 1 big and so on)and that ALL 24 were installed
I have heard of 1 bb getting lost and it being reassembled anyways with the result being a very scary dead spot like your experiencing.
Your new box:
pretty basic,follow CaptFabs instructions.
As Padresag stated,wheels up.
There are threads discussing ps boxes in detail.
But there's nothing better than tearing the heck out of something knowing that you don't have to put it back together,just to see"how it works"
T

[Choptop32]

Well, I'm hoping that I can just adjust some of the lash out and it will work.

let me state this... the box DIDNT have the scary dead spot in it when I bought the truck. I drove it from San Diego to Sacramento no problems. I then lowered the truck, redid all of the front end components and THEN on the shakedown cruise it developed the scary dead spot. So I'm hoping that it can be adjusted out. If not, its not that big a deal to put the box in and out of the truck. If it cant be adjusted out, then I'll get a new/reman. box and slap it in there.

should be at it today.