Engine Swap Questions

[shortstep66]

Hello! I'm new here and fairly new to automotive work. I've had a shortbed 66 C10 stepside for about 10 years that my brother gave me. I'm only 24, so I'm just now starting to make the money it will take to pursue this project, albeit at a very slow pace.

A little back story on the truck. It was built for the army and used to drive personnel around base. It was built in Atlanta and stayed here during it's entire lifetime. My father bought two of them at an army auction for $50 dollars a piece after they were decommissioned, a 66 and a 65. He repaired the 66 with a few of the 65 parts and his wife at the time drove it from the burbs to her job downtown every day for about 15 years, from about '75 to '90 and it has been sitting in my dads barn ever since. It's bare bones as they come with a 230 i6 and a three speed on the column. I want it to be a daily driver someday so I want to make a few modifications, such as adding disc brakes on the front, a/c, a radio (and speakers, obviously), and maybe power steering.

I've heard that the small 230 will struggle to run the compressors and pumps for the things I want. If thats the case, I'd like to upgrade to a 292. I have a 327 from a 64 corvette thats been modded as a racing motor that I could drop into it, but I don't really want a racing motor in a daily driver, especially with just a three speed tranny. I'd like to keep a straight six in it if I can.

In summary, will the 230 run well with the accessories? And if not, is the 292 a good option? And what all will I need to do to make the engine fit and work properly aside from shifting the motor mounts? I'll get a project thread started with pics once I get ready to start this project in earnest. I still have a lot of money to drop on tools before I can really get started. And I really need to learn how to weld. Haha

[apachedaddy]

The only change to put in the 292 is the passenger motor mount, everything else is the same. Not sure what pumps you want to run but the current engine is good if you want a little more power look at a clifford intake and bigger carb. Also upgrade to an HEI dizzie and you should run just fine...

[shortstep66]

Thanks for the advice! The block in the current engine has a crack in the water jacket, so I want to scrap it and get a re-manufactured motor. The only disadvantage to upgrading to a larger motor is a tiny bit more work to get it to fit and the standard 300 dollar core charge. But if I can get the 230 to work well by just changing the carb and intake, that seems like the way to go.

The things I want to add that will drain any power would be an a/c compressor and a power steering pump. I don't know if disc brakes need any kind of power to run. total n00b. Speaking of being a n00b, what is an HEI dizzie?

[Clyde65]

If you have a crack in the block, upgrade to the 250 CID inline, it will bolt in just fine, add a little performance stuff on her, including the dizzy, cam and a 500cfm 4 barrel and she will pull all day long and you wont have to change a thing.

If accessories are what your worried about, like air suspension, radio/amp and such, put a high output Alternator on her and call it done.

Good luck and oh, BTW, we are pix hoes here, we need pix so we can drool over your truck!

[tincan1966]

Originally Posted by shortstep66

Thanks for the advice! The block in the current engine has a crack in the water jacket, so I want to scrap it and get a re-manufactured motor. The only disadvantage to upgrading to a larger motor is a tiny bit more work to get it to fit and the standard 300 dollar core charge. But if I can get the 230 to work well by just changing the carb and intake, that seems like the way to go.

The things I want to add that will drain any power would be an a/c compressor and a power steering pump. I don't know if disc brakes need any kind of power to run. total n00b. Speaking of being a n00b, what is an HEI dizzie?

In reference to the term "dizzie" :
Apparently naming the parts as they actually are is confusing to some in these forums.
An HEI distributor is what they are referring to. It's an electronic unit that is used in later model engines and will provide a better ignition spark, which in turn will give you better performance, better starting and possibly a slight increase in fuel mileage.
You can purchase rebuilt ones thru a local parts store. You'll use the application of a 1975 Chevy pickup with a 250 cid(the 230, 250 and 292 share these items.)
There are also aftermarket units and conversion kits available, altho I recommend researching the forums here for recommendations on the pros and cons of some products.

If you are truly interested in learning a lot about your inline 6 engine, I'd recommend buying a manual by Leo Santucci that is available thru Amazon.com. Most think it is only for all out racing info, but I learned a lot about just making a great daily driver engine with it.

use these forums, there is a ton of info here.

[kieth]

FYI, you can install a 350 with a 700r4 out of a donor truck for less money than you will spend on the 292. Look at upgrading to a fuel injected engine and a OD transmission. will cost about the same and get better performance and fuel mileage.......JMO Kieth

[shortstep66]

Thats so much good advice. Thank you all so much. I'm going to think long and hard about the 250. I knew they existed, but I never even thought of it as a possibility for some reason. If I can find a crate motor for a reasonable price, I'll definitely consider it strongly.

Keith, I appreciate the advice, but I'm dead set on a straight six. I drive an old silverado with a 350 and Im not impressed, sadly. The mileage is terrible and little things keep going wrong with it. It kind of ruined the whole v8 experience for me after coming from a straight 4 that ran perfectly for 330,000 miles. I'd like to give the six the old college try.

Clyde65, I swear the pics are coming. Probably this weekend if weather permits. They may not be great, but I'll get them up. The truck is also a pile of rust. Hopefully not for too much longer. Haha

[Old Bleu]

Shortstep, what part of Atlanta are you in? I'm east of town, in Walton County. I have a '64 with a 230, and plan to keep it. I did add a T5 overdrive transmission, which helps greatly with drivability. Eventually, when the engine is rebuilt, I'll add a 250 crank and make the 230 a 250. I also have an HEI distributor, but haven't installed it yet. I think with better carburetion and exhaust I'll be happy with the 6.

[TJ's Chevy]

Originally Posted by shortstep66

Thats so much good advice. Thank you all so much. I'm going to think long and hard about the 250. I knew they existed, but I never even thought of it as a possibility for some reason. If I can find a crate motor for a reasonable price, I'll definitely consider it strongly.

Keith, I appreciate the advice, but I'm dead set on a straight six. I drive an old silverado with a 350 and Im not impressed, sadly. The mileage is terrible and little things keep going wrong with it. It kind of ruined the whole v8 experience for me after coming from a straight 4 that ran perfectly for 330,000 miles. I'd like to give the six the old college try.

Clyde65, I swear the pics are coming. Probably this weekend if weather permits. They may not be great, but I'll get them up. The truck is also a pile of rust. Hopefully not for too much longer. Haha

If you find a 250 it will bolt right on. There are crate motor 250's and 292's available. I am currently hotroding a 2922 and the experience is awesome. You will be more satisfied will a 292's performance than a 250's performance if you are looking for fair power. But a 250 is fully capable of making 300 hp naturally aspirated. I have books on inline engines so if you need info let me know...I have phone numbers and internet sites you can use as well. Hope all goes well!

[shortstep66]

Originally Posted by Old Bleu

Shortstep, what part of Atlanta are you in? I'm east of town, in Walton County. I have a '64 with a 230, and plan to keep it. I did add a T5 overdrive transmission, which helps greatly with drivability. Eventually, when the engine is rebuilt, I'll add a 250 crank and make the 230 a 250. I also have an HEI distributor, but haven't installed it yet. I think with better carburetion and exhaust I'll be happy with the 6.

I'm in the Dallas area on the west side of Atlanta, pretty much equidistant from I75/I20/I285. Loganville is about an hour and a half away from me in traffic. More if 85 is especially jammed. I do a lot of work up that way.

T. J., if my 230 wasn't junk due to the water jacket crack I'd love to keep it. My thinking was that since I have to replace it anyway, upsize the motor so I don't have to worry about power even a little bit. I just want a smooth and reliable drive train. And the less fabrication I have to do the better. It really sounds like a 250 crate motor is the ticket for me. More power with bolt on convenience. I don't want or need a lot of get up and go in the truck. Just point a to point b. And to look spectacular doing it. haha I do appreciate the offer to help though. I'll definitely be taking you up on that in the future. I'm still a long way from getting the motor financially, but when I get it I'll need help for sure. Aside from disassembling my 230, I have no experience with motor work.

[Clyde65]

I found this.
http://www.gmplace.com/engine/chevyg...gmc_250lb.html

one thing that you mentioned before is your current v8 not being reliable. I agree with you he 250 would be quick and easy, no fabbing anything but...

My $.02 only, if you would buy a 4.8/4l60e combo, install it, do the exhaust, fuel and electronics, you would be around $3K and have something that will get you 20mpg on the highway. These motors will run 300K miles properly maintained. I have had mine in for 4+ years and mine runs like a champ and no issues. Good luck and I wish you well!

[shortstep66]

Originally Posted by Clyde65

I found this.
http://www.gmplace.com/engine/chevyg...gmc_250lb.html

one thing that you mentioned before is your current v8 not being reliable. I agree with you he 250 would be quick and easy, no fabbing anything but...

My $.02 only, if you would buy a 4.8/4l60e combo, install it, do the exhaust, fuel and electronics, you would be around $3K and have something that will get you 20mpg on the highway. These motors will run 300K miles properly maintained. I have had mine in for 4+ years and mine runs like a champ and no issues. Good luck and I wish you well!

I'm willing to admit that experiences with v8's aren't extensive. My little brother had a 66 c10 with a 350 that used more oil than gas, and my 1990 silverado has a 350 with TBI that gets 10 miles a gallon around town and has a bad valve seal with just 160,000 miles. Both were second hand, of course, and likely beat up by the previous owners. It's just left a sour taste in my mouth, you know? I'll certainly think about though. I like to think that I'm not so rash as to push a good suggestion away without any consideration. All I care about in the motor is reliability. Fuel mileage only matters to me if it sinks below about 12 to 13 miles to the gallon. Three grand is a lot more than I was willing or expecting to pay though. How much fabrication do you think I'd have to do to the engine bay to get it in? And would I be able to reuse things from the 230 like the radiator, or is all that too small for the larger engine?

[66Submarine]

Hey, just thought I'd chime in; I'm also in Dallas. (Small world, isn't it?)

The 250 is as reliable as gravity, a direct swap, and I think you'd have to really beat on one to get 12MPG. Even my heavy old one ton gets about 13MPG with a worn out 283 V8. I think 16-18MPG is a reasonable expectation for a decent running 250 in a half ton.

The 4.8 LS is neat, but you get into the computer BS and the 4L60E--at least in stock form--is known for issues/problems (I'm not a fan at all).

I think for what you're describing a 250 would be a great choice. Later on you could also replace the three speed with a T-5 5 speed if you decide the lack of overdrive bothers you. There's very little to go wrong with a manual trans equipped truck with an inline six and a carburetor, and what little there is can be very easily fixed.

Nothing really wrong with the SBC V8's, though; they can also get decent mileage when set up well, and the only real weak spot in running forever compared to the sixes would probably be the timing chain vs. the sixes gear-drive setup.

BTW, I'd be interested in picking your cracked 230 over for useable parts before you scrap it if you're going to be replacing the entire longblock. I have several no-dollar junkyard project trucks, so another useable head, etc. is always great to have around.

[shortstep66]

Originally Posted by 66Submarine

Hey, just thought I'd chime in; I'm also in Dallas. (Small world, isn't it?)

The 250 is as reliable as gravity, a direct swap, and I think you'd have to really beat on one to get 12MPG. Even my heavy old one ton gets about 13MPG with a worn out 283 V8. I think 16-18MPG is a reasonable expectation for a decent running 250 in a half ton.

The 4.8 LS is neat, but you get into the computer BS and the 4L60E--at least in stock form--is known for issues/problems (I'm not a fan at all).

I think for what you're describing a 250 would be a great choice. Later on you could also replace the three speed with a T-5 5 speed if you decide the lack of overdrive bothers you. There's very little to go wrong with a manual trans equipped truck with an inline six and a carburetor, and what little there is can be very easily fixed.

Nothing really wrong with the SBC V8's, though; they can also get decent mileage when set up well, and the only real weak spot in running forever compared to the sixes would probably be the timing chain vs. the sixes gear-drive setup.

BTW, I'd be interested in picking your cracked 230 over for useable parts before you scrap it if you're going to be replacing the entire longblock. I have several no-dollar junkyard project trucks, so another useable head, etc. is always great to have around.

Small world indeed! And I appreciate the advice. I thought long and hard about it at work today and I think the 250 is a perfect fit for me and what I want out of the truck. I loathe all the wiring in my silverado and I swear I won't ever have another vehicle with so many electrical components.

Sure thing you can pick it apart. I want to keep all the components around in case I need them for the 250 I end up getting. While the block is cracked, the head is nearly immaculate. It had just been rebuilt before the block cracked. I think I want to hang on to that little gem for a bit. And I just found out there are swap meets around here on a semi regular basis, so I'd take anything I don't use to those so they don't go to waste. You're more than welcome to have first dibs though. Perhaps we could trade some stuff and make it very worth while for both of us.

[Clyde65]

66submarine,

I'd sure like to know what is wrong with a 4.8 and 4l60e, I have one in my truck, have had it in for 4 years and have had no issues, these Ls motors can run for 300k miles easy with little or no issues. Yes putting it in was a pain at time just because of my inexperience. My truck starts every time, runs like a champ and gets 19+ mpg on hwy. your entitled to you opinion but please don't talk down the Ls motor when you haven't done the swap and/or have direct experience with them. Just like I wouldn't about a diesel motor, I know little about them.

Shortstep, I agree the 250 would be your best economical bet, also your 230 head will work on your 250 also. Might save you a few $. Good luck!

[tincan1966]

Originally Posted by Clyde65

66submarine,

I'd sure like to know what is wrong with a 4.8 and 4l60e, I have one in my truck, have had it in for 4 years and have had no issues, these Ls motors can run for 300k miles easy with little or no issues. Yes putting it in was a pain at time just because of my inexperience. My truck starts every time, runs like a champ and gets 19+ mpg on hwy. your entitled to you opinion but please don't talk down the Ls motor when you haven't done the swap and/or have direct experience with them. Just like I wouldn't about a diesel motor, I know little about them.

Shortstep, I agree the 250 would be your best economical bet, also your 230 head will work on your 250 also. Might save you a few $. Good luck!

X2

There is really nothing wrong with the 4.8/4L60E trans.

It also makes me laugh when people comment about the computer BS and all the troubles, yet we watch them in forums tune and tinker for MONTHS trying to get a carb dialed in and jacking the timing to get one tenth of a mpg more. All this to end up lean burning the engine and starting all over again.

My TBI set up is as basic as they get, relatively maintenance free, and fun to drive.

Now as far as Shortstep is concerned- I thoroughly commend him for staying pure and deciding to keep the 6. I think it's cool and will provide many years of service.

I will add that for longevity- make sure the head has hardened seats installed on the exhaust side-it'll be more compatible with today's unleaded fuel.

[66Submarine]

Not at all what I said--putting words in my mouth and going "x2" doesn't make it what I said. Read it again; I don't like the 4L60E. Personal experience with them has been poor, problems seem extremely common, and I just think it's real dumb to buy a junkyard drivetrain for a truck you expect to be reliable with a trans that has a reputation for taking a dump @ something like 100K. JMHO.

The LS stuff is really neat--like I originally said it was. It's the later evolution of the SBC, with a lot of what used to be considered exotic racing stuff integrated as standard with current manufacturing techniques. I like them, and for racing/hotrod stuff especially they are a really cool deal, but I don't feel like I have to wedge one in my truck just because of that. The old SBC's and the like work great, too. Get me?

I actually like the "caveman" carb setup. I don't really want a computer in my truck--that's one of the reasons I don't drive a late model truck to begin with. Contrary to what some will lead you believe because they haven't (or couldn't have) done it themselves, a reasonably well set up carb isn't some kind of black magick rocket surgery, and you don't actually have to pull over every five miles to rebuild the carb and adjust the points. But, if I want to, I could; very simple, and easy to work on with just a few tools. I'm a fan of that.

If you take months tuning a carb and end up cooking the engine to the point of failure, IMO, you suck.

Back to the OP, if the head and the other stuff is real nice, you might consider just buying a 250 shortblock and using the stuff off your 230 to save some money. Good on you if you want to keep the stuff off it anyway; I just saw you say you were going to scrap it, and a lot of times the inliners with very little or nothing wrong with them get sent to China like that. If you ever do need any little parts feel free to shoot me a PM, though.

[66Submarine]

Also, I personally wouldn't (and don't) sweat it if the head doesn't have hardened seats. From the research I've done, only really abusive applications like big gas trucks and aircraft engines really seemed to be a concern. Even then, it is debatable if the lead really does that much--lots of guys running unleaded with good results.

[taclem]

One quick thought is that power steering brackets for the 292 are rarer than hens teeth.

[TJ's Chevy]

Originally Posted by taclem

One quick thought is that power steering brackets for the 292 are rarer than hens teeth.

That's why you make a set.