58 truck inspection woes

[RhatterNTatter]

Tried to register my 58 Chevy Truck here in NC and gave State a good Missouri title to start with. Was told I needed an antique vehicle inspection. Got the inspection and was told I have to post an indemnity bond because I don't have a title for the S10 frame sitting under the truck. Was told I would have to have a new VIN plate because the inspector thought the one there should have rivets....have pics of other VIn plates and they look the same as mine for the mountings. Was told I would need to fill out a bunch of forms and that my truck would be designated a replica....WTH??? Was told that I should have paperwork for the 350 engine sitting in this truck also.

What a mess....seems like this should be a legal challenge since this would/could/should be applied to all and not just to some of these?

Oh, I will have to get some appraisals on value for the bond that I have to post....

Are there any lawyers out there?

BTW....the State won't give me a title until all of the forms are filled out, the appraisals are done, the bond is posted, they do research on frame number for stolen status, on the engine number etc.

[Power lock]

This is unfortunate. I broker vintage cars and am finding this more and more. Each state and country have different rules regarding the situation you are in. However anytime a frame or body component is swapped that has a vin stamping or tag it needs to be documented and is required by federal law. Here is the problem. Most people dont do this, and now a lot of these vehicles cross jurisdictions and the problems arise. Some states call these salvage vehicles, some replica vehicles, and some states dont mind so much and title them to the original body tag # . Honestly the paperwork and bonding probably is the easiest thing to do. BTW I am working on behalf of a client that has the same problem on a truck that was imported to Germany. The truck has been in limbo for over a year.

[57chevyman]

From what I've heard from my brother in NC, the inspection / registration process is more difficult in NC than here in NY--- in NC, the vehicle has to pass inspection before it can be registered or renewed, while here in NY, you insure the vehicle and register it, get a ten day extension to get it inspected ( or, most people just leave the current inspection sticker on the window until it expires) Antique vehicles don't even have titles in NY. just a transferrable registration card. registering my highly modified 1957 truck in NY was a breeze. Sorry to hear NC is giving you all that trouble

[dwcsr]

I'm surprised this doesn't happen more with all the frame and body swapping. It becomes a composite truck that does need all major parts documented , IE bill of sale or purchase receipt for all the parts.

In Texas you need a form for a rebuilt vehicle and it lists all the major parts you used. I know most guys don't do it and I won't buy a composite truck because it always runs into issues selling it. Yes I know many have no issues but if you were to go to a show and a state Trooper asked for the vin numbers and they don't match the paper work you have, You may go home without the truck and that has happened here in Houston.

[_Ogre]

NC must have changed their easy ways since i lived there (16 years ago) it use to be one of the easiest states to title a vehicle in.
your at the mercy of the state when your paperwork doesn't match everything.
this should be a warning to anyone building/buying a vehicle without clear title and registration.

even though i have owned my truck for 25 yrs, it did not have a michigan title
first thing i did when i started my truk project was get a michigan title

[meter swinger]

I have an issue with mine. I lost the title, so i went to the licesning office with a picture of the vin tag, a tracing, and copies of registration and paid the fee for a new title. A couple weeks later i got the title, but somewhere along the way they transposed one digit in the vin number. Now i have to go through state patrol inspections because of thier mistake. After working for the government for 12yrs ive learned arguing with them is futile.

[OrrieG]

Did it come that way or did you build it before getting the title sorted out? Hard as it is for you, good lesson for others who get told "not to worry about a title its no big deal". It is especially when someone else show up with one. I keep copies of every title, registration and bill of sale. I once had the DEA show up at my doorstep because a car I sold had passed thru 5 buyers without the title being transfered and the last one was a drug dealer who abandoned it at the drug house. I showed them my copy of the two year old title with my transfer signature and the original bill of sale with the buyers signature and they took it from there.

[Zach B]

Originally Posted by dwcsr

I'm surprised this doesn't happen more with all the frame and body swapping. It becomes a composite truck that does need all major parts documented , IE bill of sale or purchase receipt for all the parts.

In Texas you need a form for a rebuilt vehicle and it lists all the major parts you used. I know most guys don't do it and I won't buy a composite truck because it always runs into issues selling it. Yes I know many have no issues but if you were to go to a show and a state Trooper asked for the vin numbers and they don't match the paper work you have, You may go home without the truck and that has happened here in Houston.

One reason I won't do anything custom that requires switching a frame. The origanal is usually strong enough

[RhatterNTatter]

So, if you use a donor S10 for the frame and keep the title for that and have it nortorized etc. then what happens if you sell the S10 cab to somebody...how do you give them the title paperwork if you are keeping it for your frame? Forgot to mention that the NC inspector says that NC titles a vehicle by the frame and not by the body and VIN.

I can understand that these matters complicate the process in buying a vehicle in which their is a new frame etc., however, NC kept the title I did have and has a copy of the bill of sale that the guy I ought this from provided *he is a dealer) and didn't explain to me how they are going to issue me a new title.

I reckon that if they want to have this done properly, they should have documents that specifically transfer those other parts from owner to owner as well....right now they are trying to transfer water in a leaky bucket. I am actually one of those guys who is trying to do the "right" thing here and still got caught up in a hot mess.

And, there is still the matter of the VIN tag that the inspector was not experienced enough to recognize as original and authentic on my vehicle.

I sure do pity all of those guys who are buying vehicles with bill of sale only and trying to get those titled in a state that does title the vehicles.....anybody doing that should at least be prepared to make sure that the seller has downloaded and printed out the official bill of sale form to use for the state that the vehicle was last registered in??? And insist that it be notarized by the seller although the notary public is supposed to be notarizing the signature and ID match the name on the ????? documentation represented bh that bill of sale. So, that is my way of saying that you should ALSO ask for the previous registration if they claim that they drove it as this would greatly help in providing the chain of ownership. Luckily, I have original frames under all of those other project trucks and only have one that I bought with bill of sale only....may jst part that one out due to this experience.....may have to have the frame and cab sent to the crusher....generally would never do that but not sure what else to do...cant have these things sitting around just taking up room.

And, last 2 thoughts....I would advise anyone modifying an original frame by cutting off the sub-frame and putting on a Camaro or other sub-frame that they need to be aware of where those frame numbers are because it might be located on the front of the frame they are modifying and cutting off...And, how is a custom built frame handled? Hmmmmm, was thinking about going that route on a build and see how that goes but it would seem like the state would need to get involved somehow and stamp a frame number on it???

[VTX-Black]

A lot of these problems are noticed now because of friendly legislation designed to accommodate custom builders of everything from kit cars to one off, scratch built hot rods.

If it is a kit car, the vendor issues a vin for the frame. In many cases if you build a frame yourself, you licence it the same way that you do a home built trailer. Where I live, the license bureau takes your parts receipts and affidavits and assigns a vin that you then use on your vehicle.

I built one a few years ago, and the last three digits are mine, so I can actually build 999 more custom vehicles :-)

Some states allow kit cars to be licensed in the year of the vehicle it represents. Others license by the year it was built.

In short, your problem may have arisen because what was done to your truck was a legal no mans land until new legislation came about to prove legal ownership vs. chop shop stolen vehicles in disguise.

Here is a source of info including some state by state legislation.
http://www.semasan.com/page.asp?cont...tling&g=semaga

[RhatterNTatter]

thanks for your input.....what you said makes sense and I hope that the states will all migrate to a process where we can get the frames, motors, etc documented and included as part of the paperwork for the truck.

The inspector indicted that NC titles by the frame which still sounds strange because the title has the VIn number from the body but does not include the frame number.

I was in a venting mode originally because the "rules" don't exist anywhere on what to do and how to do it....and, I intend to setup some custom builds that I will sell and I have to be cognizant of how to get paperwork done that will carry over no matter what the buyer's state or country would need. I am working from a basis that I will now make sure I get the frame paperwork, the engine paperwork, and the body paperwork and include all of it in a sale....don't know if we will need to do something similar for the back axel, transmission etc....but will be prepared to look for serial numbers and document them the same way with the title for the donor vehicles if applicable.

thanks for your input

[VTX-Black]

When I built my first one from scratch I found out how to licence it before even starting, so i think you are doing the right thing now.

I then began build book for two primary purposes:
1) To prove ownership
2) To make it easier to maintain.

For initial registration I submitted a copy of every receipt that not only showed that I didn't steal the parts, but that I had also already paid tax on them and should't pay it on the vehicle.

When I eventually sold, even though it wasn't needed, for the next owner I provided a notarized build list along with the ownership and the build book for reference. I suppose that I could have included part numbers and serial numbers where it made sense but I didn't go to that level.


here is your link You can find NC on the list.
http://www.bipac.net/page.asp?conten...olbox&g=SEMAGA


NOTE: The licensors are not always clear on the rules so sometimes we have to guide them. Your state's rule say that "If a vehicle owner desires a vehicle title classification change, he or she may, upon proper application, be eligible for a reclassification."

There are three classifications Replica, Rod and Custom (scratch) built. All get titled as "Specially Constructed Vehicle." Maybe you can make a case for keeping it the year of original manufacture though, if not actual original? Certainly try to retina the vin as the one from the chassis if you can make a case.

[Wrenchbender Ret]

. BTW I am working on behalf of a client that has the same problem on a truck that was imported to Germany. The truck has been in limbo for over a year.[/QUOTE]

I recently sold a 65 Buick to someone in Germany & he got it inspected & licensed with no problem.

[OrrieG]

[QUOTE=RhatterNTatter;6423882]And, last 2 thoughts....I would advise anyone modifying an original frame by cutting off the sub-frame and putting on a Camaro or other sub-frame that they need to be aware of where those frame numbers are because it might be located on the front of the frame they are modifying and cutting off...And, how is a custom built frame handled? Hmmmmm, was thinking about going that route on a build and see how that goes but it would seem like the state would need to get involved somehow and stamp a frame number on it???[/QUOTE

There is a second vin on the top of the frame below the drivers sill. It is beyond the cab mount so does not get removed when front clips are installed. I would get the frame inspected before putting the cab on and even add an inspection plate if its going to be an issue. Jay in Kuna Idaho has clipped like 30 or these trucks here and never had an issue with titling, but we have a builder fabricator friendly process if you get involved with DMV early.

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by RhatterNTatter

So, if you use a donor S10 for the frame and keep the title for that and have it nortorized etc. then what happens if you sell the S10 cab to somebody...how do you give them the title paperwork if you are keeping it for your frame? Forgot to mention that the NC inspector says that NC titles a vehicle by the frame and not by the body and VIN.

Jow is a custom built frame handled? Hmmmmm, was thinking about going that aon a build and see how that goes but it would seem like the state would need to get involved somehow and stamp a frame number on it???

On the donor rig frame such as an S=10 documentation is the key. A copy of the title to the donor truck plus a copy of the bill of sale you wrote out for the parts you sold. If you sold it to a legit scrap yard with the title they usually note on the paperwork that they "received the title" That is for when the inspectors drop by their operation and want to know where that complete S-10 cab came from.

Documentation is the key on the whole build. Where each major part came from and a bill of sale or reciept for said part in your build book. That's the three ring binder with page savers you keep to put said papers in along with photos of said parts or said donor rigs.
On the S010 frame:
A copy of the bill of sale for when you bought the S-10
A copy of the title or The title it's self
Photo of the donor rig
Photo of frame minus s-10 body
photo of body heading off to a new life or to scrap yard plus paper work telling where it went. It sounds like it might be are over doing it with that but a couple of pages in the book so it can be flipped open for them to follow the document trail answers a lot of questions the inspector might have.
On down through the whole list of major parts including engine, trans and rear end.

On the custom frame, most custom frame builders will but their own stamped number on the frame just to be able to keep track of it later if a question comes up on it. They also will give you a written statement of origin on the frame if they are a legit shop building frames. In this state that is a must have as the rules changed on home welded frames a few years ago and you have to have the welding done by a certified welder or pass inspection by a certified welder. I was told that there had been several accidents due to suspect welding but can't confirm that. Those sloppily welded rat rods don't help the cause any though.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by meter swinger

I have an issue with mine. I lost the title, so i went to the licesning office with a picture of the vin tag, a tracing, and copies of registration and paid the fee for a new title. A couple weeks later i got the title, but somewhere along the way they transposed one digit in the vin number. Now i have to go through state patrol inspections because of thier mistake. After working for the government for 12yrs ive learned arguing with them is futile.

I would "lose" the new title and re-apply.

[dwcsr]

Originally Posted by DransportGarage

I would "lose" the new title and re-apply.

That was my thought.

[mphudak]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

NC must have changed their easy ways since i lived there (16 years ago) it use to be one of the easiest states to title a vehicle in.
your at the mercy of the state when your paperwork doesn't match everything.
this should be a warning to anyone building/buying a vehicle without clear title and registration.

even though i have owned my truck for 25 yrs, it did not have a michigan title
first thing i did when i started my truk project was get a michigan title

Same experience with all the old trucks i've bought/owned in NC (4 total). In the late 90's i bought a 54 truck w/no title. No problem. I needed a copy of a BOS from where the guy i bought it from purchased it, then the BOS from my purchase. Title done. My current 55 suburban was purchased w/a SC title (2010), registered in Fayetteville w/no issues or inspection AND it had either a salvage or replica title from SC (it has a gbody chassis). Now that I have it in atlanta, Georgia didn't even bat an eye at it. I gave them the ppw w/title and immediately handed me the title back saying "we don't need this, keep it if you want".

I would try a different DMV/tag office.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by dwcsr

That was my thought.

Use the "my dog ate my homework" excuse.

[dwcsr]

Originally Posted by mphudak

I would try a different DMV/tag office.

.
I've done that as well and also came back a day later when that clerk was out to lunch and gotten what I needed. Here in Harris county the laws are applied randomly and sometime it seems that each desk in the office has a different take on the old car laws.

[RhatterNTatter]

So, is there a database somewhere that has the frame number match up to the VIN number? Really wondering how that works since the inspectors will look to see if everything matches.

[jetnow1]

How do they go by the frame number on early trucks- my AD was registered by the original and long gone engine number, the cab had the serial number with the original
clutch head screws? As far as I know there are no numbers on the frame.

[Zach B]

Originally Posted by jetnow1

How do they go by the frame number on early trucks- my AD was registered by the original and long gone engine number, the cab had the serial number with the original
clutch head screws? As far as I know there are no numbers on the frame.

AD never had a vin on the fame. It's going to be difficult to register that truck. It happens a lot though. Some people buy new titles with a door tag. Really on something like that you may want to talk to an expert. Jim carter is the guy to talk to. He knows almost everything on the AD trucks has provided me with more useful info than most venders have.

[DransportGarage]

Originally Posted by RhatterNTatter

So, is there a database somewhere that has the frame number match up to the VIN number? Really wondering how that works since the inspectors will look to see if everything matches.

The frame number IS the VIN number. It either matches or it doesn't. (If I'm wrong, someone please correct me...)

[57chevyman]

Damn I really had it easy in NY, where you register the truck first. I cant even read the VIN on my door pillar, it was painted over. they didn't title vehicles in NY in the 50s, so all I have is a transferrable registration.

there was no inspection as far as what parts came from what other trucks. just a basic safety inspection for working lights, horn, wipers, brakes, tires, etc, etc