55.2-59 Frame Choices

[wsurf4me]

So I've had my 58 Apache Fleetside project in mothballs for some time now and need to get going again. When I bought it, it was already on a 3rd gen C10 frame which the previous owner had shortened and fabricated mounts. If I remember correctly the frame code indicated mid-70's. The truck is currently a roller with the cab and bed mounted. I like a lowered stance with the truck as low as practically possible, maybe coil over or air ride. The question is should I continue with the existing frame or should I head in a different direction? I'm wondering if the front is too wide to get it low, also does it make sense to ditch the leaf springs and go four link? Been doing research but keep spinning in circles, what's your experience?

[mr48chev]

I'd think it was too wide to go as low as you probably want without using ugly wheels and end up looking like you have dualie front wheels on all four corners. Even then it may be too wide. Stock TF rear axle is 62 and a frog hair wide wms to WMS The mid 70's C 10 are 65 inches wms to wms

[GeronimoApache]

Wheel choice will play a big part in this. I have a 87 C10 chassis under my 59. It's lowered 4.5 in the front and about 5 in the rear. I used CPP modular 2.5" drop spindles because they are advertised as pulling the wheels in 5/8" per side. Im using the EZ chassis swap kit which sets the body a little higher on the frame so that you can run stock bed floor height. You could lower the body more if you were willing to lose some bed floor height. The truck doesn't sit super low (I'm ok with that)

If you want to stick with the chassis, Michigan Metal Works makes narrowed control arms for the 73-87 C10 trucks. It pulls the wheels in about 2" per side I think. They are only available for air bag suspension. Also I think the QA1 coilover conversion kit that is available for those chassis also pulls the wheels in a little bit.

[mr48chev]

That's some pretty good info.

I'm going to say that first you need to decide how well the truck was installed on the frame it is sitting on.
Then are you up to spending the money for the control arms 900 bucks, http://michiganmetalworks.com/store/...product_id=120

Plus probably another thousand to narrow the rear axle or the effort to hunt a 5 on 5 axle that is the right width. Then add in the cost of bags as the A arms are bag only.

Or keep hunting for another chassis to swap that meets your width and ability to drop needs for a lot less total investment.

It comes down to a "this is what I want, how do I achieve it" thing.

[lynx5653]

My 55 on a 1986 chassis low enough for me

[dsraven]

if you want it low, and expect to make turns without the tires rubbing, you will need to do a little research. it totally depends on what you want in the end and how much you are willing to spend to get the end result. a bunch of the cost can be reduced if you are a fabricator and have some tools, a big area to work in and room to store a disassembled truck. without some pics it is hard to know what your project looks like but I will say you should do any repairs to the body first while the cab is sitting on the original frame. door pillars, hinges, door hinge mounts in the doors, rockers and steps, etc. anything that requires the body to be braced square while you cut out major parts of it. otherwise the cab may tweak when removed from the original frame, then repairs done unbraced, but when the parts all come together in the end they don't fit well so more work is required. do all the fitting work first and save a few headaches for later. a frame swap will have it's own set of problems without adding to them. I assume because you are talking a frame swap that there is a limited budget so a new frame from a builder is off the table?
if doing a frame swap try to get a complete donor unit from an insurance write off or something. that way you get the completed unit that runs etc. a lot of cash can be spent on power train stuff just matching this to that. you get most stuff you need in a single package and may have some good body parts to sell to supplement the build. if you have the space and are a fabricator you might also consider building your own frame. a different frame width could be done to accommodate your needs. if not then look for something close to your wheel base and track width. allow room for whatever tire width and rim offset style you like. try to get a dimension from the inner lip across to the other side inner lip of your front and rear fenders, you know, the tire cutting lip, so you know what you have to deal with. a plumb bob works if stuff is in the way you just mark the floor and then move the truck out of the way.
one idea is to use the floor and firewall from a donor in your old cab because then the seat mounts, column hole, pedals and firewall mounted booster are already in place. the heater can also be re-used if that section of the firewall is kept.
anyway, up to you. just a couple of ideas.

[mr48chev]

To do what you want to do as far as big tires and going low I have to suggest doing some serous homework and finding out what others have done to achieve the look you want.

I don't believe in arbitrarily Throwing out wild an expensive suggestions when someone asks a question like this. If someone asks is this high end custom after market chassis better than that high end custom after market chassis I might voice an opinion. I'm lucky to be a few hours drive from both Morrison and Rydman Ranch chassis and have seen plenty of both shops work but they want more for a chassis than most guys on here have in a complete build with paint and upholstery.

If you are thinking about having someone do a chassis swap/upgrade and you are on Facebook you might check out Purple Monkey Kustoms Rich does a lot of frame swaps in AD and some TF trucks using the 98 and up C 10 chassis primarily his shop is out west of Daytona beach but He doesn't have visitors without a prior appointment. He isn't doing much customer work now preferring to build trucks his way and put them up for sale. He might be open to a chassis swap where he doesn't have to do the complete build though. Or he might have some suggestions for you to do it on your own. He doesn't piddle pot around on the projects he does either.

[dsraven]

hey wsurf, got any feedback on your budget, fab skills, timeline to finish, shop space, storage space etc? otherwise you are just kicking our tires. some pics would be good too.

[GeronimoApache]

Heres some pics of my project on an 87 C10 chassis with the EZ Chassis swap kit.

The first pic has stock 15x7 Chevy truck wheels. The rest of the pics has 15x6 astro supreme wheels. They 2-5/8" backspace so they stick out a little farther than the factory GM wheels. The rear axle is a Strange Engineering 9" for a 73-87 C10 but made 2" narrower. There is no bed floor and no gas in the gas tank.

[wsurf4me]

Wow! Went from crickets for months to all kinds of info. I'll take some current pics and get back to you all.

[wsurf4me]

Originally Posted by GeronimoApache

Wheel choice will play a big part in this. I have a 87 C10 chassis under my 59. It's lowered 4.5 in the front and about 5 in the rear. I used CPP modular 2.5" drop spindles because they are advertised as pulling the wheels in 5/8" per side. Im using the EZ chassis swap kit which sets the body a little higher on the frame so that you can run stock bed floor height. You could lower the body more if you were willing to lose some bed floor height. The truck doesn't sit super low (I'm ok with that)

If you want to stick with the chassis, Michigan Metal Works makes narrowed control arms for the 73-87 C10 trucks. It pulls the wheels in about 2" per side I think. They are only available for air bag suspension. Also I think the QA1 coilover conversion kit that is available for those chassis also pulls the wheels in a little bit.

Thanks for the info and pictures. Although I like the stance of your truck, looking for something a little lower than that. I saw the EZ chassis kit but wasn't sure if it was worth it or would be too high. I'll get some pictures up but the previous owner fabricated his own mounts and while they work I'm not crazy about them.

[wsurf4me]

Here are a few pics of the truck now. Will try to get a side shot this weekend.

[wsurf4me]

Here's some better shots of the mounts and where he shortened the frame. There is a backing plate about 4 inches wide on the inside of the frame rails.

[wsurf4me]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

To do what you want to do as far as big tires and going low I have to suggest doing some serous homework and finding out what others have done to achieve the look you want.

I don't believe in arbitrarily Throwing out wild an expensive suggestions when someone asks a question like this. If someone asks is this high end custom after market chassis better than that high end custom after market chassis I might voice an opinion. I'm lucky to be a few hours drive from both Morrison and Rydman Ranch chassis and have seen plenty of both shops work but they want more for a chassis than most guys on here have in a complete build with paint and upholstery.

If you are thinking about having someone do a chassis swap/upgrade and you are on Facebook you might check out Purple Monkey Kustoms Rich does a lot of frame swaps in AD and some TF trucks using the 98 and up C 10 chassis primarily his shop is out west of Daytona beach but He doesn't have visitors without a prior appointment. He isn't doing much customer work now preferring to build trucks his way and put them up for sale. He might be open to a chassis swap where he doesn't have to do the complete build though. Or he might have some suggestions for you to do it on your own. He doesn't piddle pot around on the projects he does either.

Thanks for the info, I may have to give him a shout.

Originally Posted by dsraven

hey wsurf, got any feedback on your budget, fab skills, timeline to finish, shop space, storage space etc? otherwise you are just kicking our tires. some pics would be good too.

Fab skills are good, shop with room, mig, tig, small fab table. Can't afford a full on custom frame but I'm ok with modifying what I have or getting another donor and doing the same. Looking for a nice stance with the rear wheels tucked up into the bed openings, don't need it on the ground I want to be able to drive it. Time is always an issue but at 57 years old I have a little bit left

[mr48chev]

Sounds like you may be able to do what you need to do once you get it figured out.

[GeronimoApache]

Originally Posted by wsurf4me

Thanks for the info and pictures. Although I like the stance of your truck, looking for something a little lower than that. I saw the EZ chassis kit but wasn't sure if it was worth it or would be too high. I'll get some pictures up but the previous owner fabricated his own mounts and while they work I'm not crazy about them.

I could very easily go lower with my truck. The rear leaf springs were broken on the donor so I bought a new pair of 4" drop springs. Then I put in a lowering shackle, bolted at the 1" mounting hole. I could change that to the 2" dropped hole and swap the front spring hangers for dropped hangers to gain another 2 inches of lowering.

Up front, I have 2" drop coils with the 2.5" spindles. So I could change to a 3" coil and also have the option of dropped control arms.

I'm just gonna run it as is because I would eventually like to swap in the QA1 bolt in coilover conversion kit. I have seen these trucks bagged on 73-87 C10 chassis before

Looking at your truck, yeah I'd say those front cab mounts don't look too good. Everything else seems to be good though. It's too bad they shortened the frame though. It's actually not necessary to do for this swap

[GeronimoApache]

I have these pics saved on my phone. I dont know who's truck it is. I just saw it on Facebook. But I remember this truck has a factory 59 frame but he welded in a 73-87 c10 front clip.

[wsurf4me]

Originally Posted by GeronimoApache

I could very easily go lower with my truck. The rear leaf springs were broken on the donor so I bought a new pair of 4" drop springs. Then I put in a lowering shackle, bolted at the 1" mounting hole. I could change that to the 2" dropped hole and swap the front spring hangers for dropped hangers to gain another 2 inches of lowering.

Up front, I have 2" drop coils with the 2.5" spindles. So I could change to a 3" coil and also have the option of dropped control arms.

I'm just gonna run it as is because I would eventually like to swap in the QA1 bolt in coilover conversion kit. I have seen these trucks bagged on 73-87 C10 chassis before

Looking at your truck, yeah I'd say those front cab mounts don't look too good. Everything else seems to be good though. It's too bad they shortened the frame though. It's actually not necessary to do for this swap

Thanks for letting me know you can go lower, what you're describing may be just enough for me. I was concerned my frame wouldn't work but seems like we have a chance. Other peoples experiences are what you really can't find when you're digging thru all the info out there. The rear end seems pretty straight forward to me, if I keep this frame will add a c-notch kit to give me a little extra just in case. As far as the front goes I need to put the front fenders on to see where I'm at and go from there. Been so long since I broke it down need to double check exactly how much room I need.

[dsraven]

in the last image from geronimo, that truck sitting on the frame with the rear end sitting low, the way the front wheels sit in the fenders would say to me the tires are not gonna turn without hitting the fenders.
I have my truck sitting on an envoy frame. the envoy is wider. I locked the suspension at the normal ride height, front and rear, before taking the body off. that way the truck, when done, will (be made to) sit with the suspension sitting the way it was made to sit. when done I will adjust the springs out front and rear if the ride needs to be changed in order to achieve the correct height (coil over strut style is stock up front with an upper and lower control arm so lowering shocks and spring kits are available because there is a performance model in the gm lineup of this unit and out rear an air bag suspension was available as a stock option so I can remove the stock coils and install the stock airbags out back in about an hour minus the air lines etc). I say this because the frame swap needs to have the suspension sitting like a stock truck so it works properly and steers properly. take a heavy truck, remove the body and install a light truck on top and the suspension is bound to sit higher than it used to. that means the suspension doesn't work like it should. the lower control arms are made to sit level with the ground when viewed from the front. the upper control arms work in conjunction with the lowers to make the tires angle in or out at the top depending on where in the suspension stroke they are and whether or not the upper and lower arms are the same length.this is done by the different arcs that the arms go through. this is important for a frame swap because if the suspension is allowed to sit with the lower control arms at a downward angle, like there is less weight on them than normal, then as weight comes onto them as you go over a bump and the suspension moves upward the tire will move further towards the fender at the bottom because the ball joint end of the control arm will move outwards as the arm moves upwards. the upper control arm may also skew the tire angles further depending on the set up. it's important if the tires are already close to the fenders like the pic mentioned if this is confusing you could google it for some steering geometry diagrams but suffice to say you probably should put the suspension through a complete cycle from lowest to tallest with the tire turned hard both ways in order to see if the tire rubs or comes close enough to rubbing so after an alignment, when stuff can change a little due to shimming etc, you don't end up with a surprise. shorter control arms compound the difference because they have a smaller arc of movement so a small upward movement canmean a bigger difference in camber
on my frame swap the wheels are already fairly flat faced as stock wheels. I have installed a shorter tire than stock because I like that look on these trucks but still will do the full suspension travel test with a full tread tire. i plan to grab a set of nicer wheels with stock offsets when done but will mock up with these stock wheels. if there are issues during mock up I plan to flare the fenders to accommodate or space the truck off the frame a bit until tire interference is not an issue.I have included a pic of my set up looking through the headlight hole at the tire so you can see the tire to fender clearance. changing the tire size also affects the steering scrub radius angle the same as changing a bunch of wheel offsets would do so it becomes important to keep track of all the changes done in order to have a truck that is fun and safe to drive.
here is a little wheel calculator that has a diagram of the suspension changes

https://www.wheel-size.com/calc/?whe...cl=50mm&sr=0mm

[jwhotrod]

here is mine mocked up on 16 front wheels and 18 rears off my 35 chevy sedan. it is set at ride height on flatout engineerings c4 corvette suspension on the stock frame.

[wsurf4me]

Originally Posted by jwhotrod

here is mine mocked up on 16 front wheels and 18 rears off my 35 chevy sedan. it is set at ride height on flatout engineerings c4 corvette suspension on the stock frame.

Can I ask why you went 16" wheels in the front? Are the tires close to rubbing or it's just the look you wanted?

[dsraven]

did you mean the truck is at ride height once it gets the tires/wheels you plan to use, the ones in pic are just loaners, or you mean these in the pic are the tire sizes for the final ride height?
lots of rake the way it sits.

[jwhotrod]

I put prop sticks in the suspension to set the suspension at ride height as prescribed by the proper ride height for the shockwaves I'm using. The wheels and tires also contribute to how it sits or "stance". I had built my 35 sedan on 14 & 15 inch rims and tires from my 34 chevy coupe. When I went to buy wheels and tires for the sedan I couldn't find 14 & 15 rims or tires that I liked. So, I went and found tires in 16" & 18" that had the same OD as the original 14 & 15s on the coupe, since I wanted it to sit the same way and height off the ground. So this is my mock up for how this will sit, whether I use 17 or 18
' rims in front and 18 or 20 in rear. I like bigs and littles but I don't like the newer Huge rims as they have way to much air space in them so you can see all the ugly stuff brhind them. that is why I like these Legacy II wheels from Billet specialties. no air space, and I don't like the rubber band tires that some people run. so that is the story, you make decisions early on and chassis setup, and you live with those decisions thru the rest of the build.