airbags and handling

[dropped_71chevy]

I want something that handles extremely well, i'm talkin about cornering not just smooth ride but I love the idea of adjustable ride height and a nice smooth ride.

How do airbags combine with good, sports car like handling

[Sublvr72]

keep the swaybar and bag it. Handles great, but you will not be able to go as low

[dropped_71chevy]

is the swaybar gonna get in the way

[68LSS1]

Airbags do not and cannot ever be used in conjunction with sports car handling. I am on a quest to find sports car handling with my project. I feel I have the best that can be got in kit form without fabricating a custom suspension. Do airbags handle ok? Yes, even on a daily driver. But you are not going to be pushing any 1/4 or slalom envelopes with bags.

[loweredd]

Originally Posted by 68LSS1

Airbags do not and cannot ever be used in conjunction with sports car handling. I am on a quest to find sports car handling with my project. I feel I have the best that can be got in kit form without fabricating a custom suspension. Do airbags handle ok? Yes, even on a daily driver. But you are not going to be pushing any 1/4 or slalom envelopes with bags.

Why wont you be able to push 1/4 envelopes with bags? I know plenty of S10's with airbags that run 11's and lower....

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by haystack71

I want something that handles extremely well, i'm talkin about cornering not just smooth ride but I love the idea of adjustable ride height and a nice smooth ride.

How do airbags combine with good, sports car like handling

Sports car like handling as in camaro/mustang or better than that?

If your looking to handle similarly to a late model production 'pony' car, you can achieve similar results w/either airbags or coils, but both will need help.

Larger than stock sway bars, a freshly rebuilt suspension, & a variable ratio steering box will get you started. Three more important factors are sticky, high quality tires, tuning, & an educated driver.

A tuned vehicle w/sticky tires & a good driver will out-corner the best IFS w/cheap tires & a crappy driver.... irregardless of how the vehicle is suspended (airbags or coils).

And remember, it's a truck. Even w/a corvette based suspension, it won't handle as good as a vette.

[dropped_71chevy]

i was looking for a good handling truck not a porsche gt3 so that way u guys know i'm not crazy

[Low69CST]

From what i've heard you need each bag on it's own valve so air doesn't transfer during cornering. I've never heard of a "performance" suspension on bags, but like you said, it would probably meet your needs. The trick is tires. Handling tires are real skinny. They handle excellent, but they will kill your ride. I got a buddy with a bagged car and his tires are 40 or 35 series. It rides fairly harsh. not terrible but way worse than anyone thought with air bags.

[TheFabShop]

You can setup a bagged truck to still handle very well.Like you said it is a truck though so don't expect a sports car.I can also say that your wheel/tire size play a big roll in this but a well set up wheel/tire combo with the right setup on bags will please you.

[penaduny]

i think everybody has a different view on this.. but i will say that if i keep my truck really low, i can handle corners extremly well with almost no body roll (still have the sway bar). and even that low the ride isnt too bad for bein a couple inches off the ground.

so its this simple.. people who think bags dont handle well, havnt seen/driven somthing setup correctly.

[68LSS1]

Airbags sounded like a good idea until he got to the last statement which made me wonder what he actually had in mind for the truck. I have nothing against airbags, they make for great suspension systems.
Lowerdd, my statement should have said "pushing any 1/4 mile and slolom ..." not "or". I still stand by that (corrected) statement.
SCOTI, nice post and I know it's a truck but anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.
Low69CST, "Handling tires are real skinny" is the opposite of the truth. The tires are where it all starts and where it all ends. They will only allow you to brake, accelerate and corner so fast, no matter what you have (see SCOTI's post).
penaduny, your statements support mine. What kind of suspension travel can you have with your stuff on the ground? Would you like to hit a pothole or go over some railroad tracks at 70mph like that? Didn't think so. You'll be braking for every dip in the road with your bags dropped to give you that killer cornering.
TheFAbShop, I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. Except for maybe a couple words.
Bags will be fine for a daily driver. They will handle well and give a good ride. They will not out perform a coil over set up though. Or a 4 link. Or a 3 link. Personally I'd be looking for something to add power steering also. Just because our trucks are 35 years old doesn't mean they have to handle like that. There are some trucks out there that handle quite well off the show room floor these days.

[NORCAL_GUY73]

I think the handling ticket is in the eye of the beholder. unless you have progressive rate springs, a bag simply replaces the factory or lowered replacement c-10 spring. I had a five inch lowering spring inthe front and six in theback with shock relocaters and sway bar with 245-40-17 and 275-40-17's and the truck handled knowwhere near where it does now bagged with a 245-35-20/275-35-20 combo with no sway bar, c-nothched with drop spindles, plus my ride is 10 fold smoother, and if the occassional pot hole or rail road tracks pop up, i just adjust the suspension to compensate.
also not only does it handle well. it is extremely quick and no slower than when i had a static drop.
I am in agreement with whom ever said those we argue the fact, have never driven a quality bag set up.
Dont get me wrong, it is not an indy car or a new porsche but it handles well and looks 10x cleaner now that i can lay it out on bags.....

[7T7]

Air suspension is still a very new concept to many people outside of the Simi truck industry. It is slowly making it's way into NHRA and IHRA on some very fast dragsters. Now it looks like the Pro-touring/ G-machine crowd are seeing that air springs can improve the handling characteristics of their old cars (and trucks) just as well as good quality coil springs can, while still maintaining a comfortable ride on the street.
From what I gather from the original post is he is looking for "sport car handling" not race car handling.

Here is a quote from Tony Becknell of Air Ride Technologies.

"If you stop and think about an air suspension in the purest sense, it will be much easier for you to see what I am talking about. An airbag is a spring. It exhibits a spring rate. Just like a performance oriented coil spring it has a progressive spring rate. It is completely adjustable. Meaning that you can literally change the spring rate of the car by simply making changes in pressure. You can vary the pressure a few pounds either directly from your target ride height pressure, not effecting aesthetic ride height but changing the way the car performs. Air springs also do not transmit frequency so they will help absorb some of the punishment your chassis is seeing from those low profile big barreled rollers we all like to run. "

I'm not setting my truck to "lay rockers" but rather to handle well.
The bags are set up independently and adjustability is also set up in the brackets.
That way we can set spring rate and ride height with air and brackets and not compromise stance for handling.

The end results should be superb handling and superior ride quality. We all know how harsh the ride can be with static drops.

Hey! This is all new to me also. Even though I have been installing air suspension for close to 10 years.
A wicked handling car with Air Ride can be done..........a truck?...... well that's a little harder.

[neonlarry]

Not ever having used an air suspension vs coil i'm not sure on handling. But several people have compared air ride to progressive coil springs to good handling, NOT.
You won't see any race cars with progressive springs. When setting a vechicle up for a corner the last thing you want is a changing spring rate. They might give you a good ride and a stiffer than stock cornering but anyone who is driving a vechicle between 8 to 9½ tenths will not want a changing spring rate.
Just to backup what 68LSS1 said about pickups handling well, just take a look at what an SRT10 will pull on a skid pad.

[TheFabShop]

You don't have to lose a sway bar on a bagged truck I don't understand why some people think this and if your truck doesn't have one you can add one easily.A progressive rate spring setup to handle will not ride super smooth anyway nor will ant sport style suspension ride super great.They are not designed to ride great they are made for handeling period.Think about it how many sports cars have you ever rode in that rode great they have a stiff ride.I just know for a fact that a correctly setup air suspension will handle,ride,drive good on these trucks.I have built trucks daily driven that don't have one single problem.Hope I didn't start anything just trying to help out.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 68LSS1

SCOTI, nice post and I know it's a truck but anything is possible if you throw enough money at it.

My statement was to let Haystack71 know that even w/a vette based suspension installed, it prob wouldn't handle like a vette.

That being said, I guess we just have different opinions on this one.

I just don't agree w/your statements that air-bag based suspensions "cannot ever be used in conjunction with sports car handling" or "They will not out perform a coil over set up...". Never say never . . ....

Super Chevy 'Road Rage' vehicle testing:
Stock 2002 Z-28
Stock LS1 w/stock suspension/tires
.80g's on a 200ft. skid pad
40.90mph on a 420ft. slalom
132ft. 60-0 braking
13.80 @ 106mph w/2.36 60ft
Modified 68 Camaro
475hp 383
2" drop spindle, lowering springs, 1.125" sway bar, kyb's, 17"BFG G-force
.83g's on a 200ft. skid pad
43.79mph on a 420ft. slalom
158ft. 60-0 braking
12.07 @ 117mph w/1.84 60ft.
Modified 63Chevy II
350 w/700R4
TCI kit w/2" drop spindles, 12" discs, w/air bags + sway bars
9" Ford rear w/relocated mono-leafs
2" lowering blocks, air bags, panhard bar & 12" discs
17 & 18" Falkens
.82g's on a 200ft. skidpad
43.32mph on a 420ft. slalom
132.5ft. 60-0 braking
13.47 @ 102.80mph w/2.07 60ft.

Better G's, faster slalom, & equal braking w/o ABS. . . ..... not too shabby for a ChevyII on air bags, w/lowering blocks, & drop spindles. I myself consider late model f-bodies to be very adequate handlers. So if a ChevyII using air bags can out-perform a late model f-body (w/30yrs suspension/geometry improvements), there's no reason to say it isn't possible for an early truck to handle better (like a late model sport truck) using bags.

[Dave Reed]

I have been torn about bags vs. coil for a long time. I figured bags couldn't give me what I wanted. After reading this article I may choose bags. I have no desire to lay it on the ground and I want "sportscar-LIKE handling" , but still be able to put 500 lbs in the bed occassionally. TXFirefighter said his 4/6 ECE drop rode and handled like a Mustang which was completely acceptable to me and he still hauls engines in the back, but if bags could get me their for the same price and a more comfortable ride I would go with that.

Not to highjack the thread, but will bags get me there for a similiar price without the harshness?

[flatblackclassic]

Originally Posted by discreet007

I have been torn about bags vs. coil for a long time. I figured bags couldn't give me what I wanted. After reading this article I may choose bags. I have no desire to lay it on the ground and I want "sportscar-LIKE handling" , but still be able to put 500 lbs in the bed occassionally. TXFirefighter said his 4/6 ECE drop rode and handled like a Mustang which was completely acceptable to me and he still hauls engines in the back, but if bags could get me their for the same price and a more comfortable ride I would go with that.

Not to highjack the thread, but will bags get me there for a similiar price without the harshness?

Bags are going to cost a bit more but it's well worth every penny.

[TheFabShop]

He is right bags are well worth the $ but they are a little costly than a coil setup.You do have options as far as compressors,valves,2,3,4,or bag/leaf spring setups.You just need to research before making a decision to be shure what is right for you.Also don't be afraid to haul with bags what do ya think big trucks have.

[7T7]

I know I'm getting a little off course here. I realize we are talking mainly truck handling, but Popular Hot Rodding has a great story in their new issue about Road Course racing and air suspension. The title of the article is "Air suspension: The Next Great Tuning Tool" Popular Hot Rodding is a G-Machine / Pro-Touring mag now if you haven't read it in a few years.
It was nice to see they are actually coming around.

This is a quote from editor Johnny Hunkins.

"For my part, I am now an Air Ride convert. I see no down side to it whatsoever and will never look at air springs in the same light again. If you are building a serious G-machine that you plan to use on track, we recommend you take a close look at ART's ShockWave system."

[TheFabShop]

Yea the shockwaves are pretty nice.I know of 3 people running them right now that are pleased with them.Oh the are on suv's.

[68LSS1]

SCOTI, you're right you got me there. I, of all people, should be the last to say "Never say never". By the way their 1/4 miles all sucked.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by TheFabShop

He is right bags are well worth the $ but they are a little costly than a coil setup.You do have options as far as compressors,valves,2,3,4,or bag/leaf spring setups.You just need to research before making a decision to be shure what is right for you.Also don't be afraid to haul with bags what do ya think big trucks have.

Obviously I would want a good system......so what does it cost. Is it prohibitive compared to coils? (sportscar handling, not laying it on the frame)

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by 7T7

I know I'm getting a little off course here. I realize we are talking mainly truck handling, but Popular Hot Rodding has a great story in their new issue about Road Course racing and air suspension.

I don't think your off subject Frank, I think you are right on subject. I followed this thread and refrained from responding because I agreed with both side perspectives.

I was wondering when someone was going to look at air suspension as a way to have the ability to instantly tune a performance suspension? It looks like Bret at Air Ride took on the challenge, and succeded.

I think we all forget that an suspension set up, including air suspension will only perform within the peremiters of it's design. If a system is design to go really low then raise up enough to drive, then thats about all it is going to do.

On the other hand if the air system is designed around a performance tuned suspension and used as a means to fine tune that suspension it has awesome potential....

[GreyHoundSteve]

I just recently bought a 67 swb and have been researching suspension options. Unfortunately the po of my truck decided to heat the coils to achieve the drop he wanted. I plan to build this truck the right way and fixing the po's mistakes here are my #1 priority right now.

Heres what i know and chime in if im mistaken:

You want to drop your front spindels first. Ive seen 2" and 2.5" drop spindals and i dont see any advantage or disadvantage to either except one will lower your truck an extra 1/2 inch.

There are basically 3 options for dropping a truck right. 1-Shorter coils and quality shocks, 2-coilovers, and 3-airbags. With option 1 It seems like there are a number of companies that make dropped coils for our trucks and also a great # of companies that make quality shocks to match, ive read that if you are going to go this route that you may need to relocate the shocks and change the A pillars to the new "tubular" style..... What else guys?
Now on option #2 i havent seen discussed on this thread but ive seen a few guys around here with coilovers and they say the ride is good. Im no stranger to coilovers as i have used them on sports cars (late model) in the past and had great luck with them but have never used them on a truck. Ive heard rumors that coilovers limit the hauling ability of the truck but i dont know if thats true ...... whats the deal here guys?
option #3. Like most people when i think of air bags i think of trucks sitting on the frame at car shows or something out of a rap video and so i never thought of them as a viable performance option. After doing more research on the matter ive found that notion to be untrue. It seems that bags CAN be a nice performance suspension when set up correctly however how to set them up this way is a mystery to me. When i see guys post about their bagged trucks i see terms like "c notched" and new cross member accompany this mod and i dont know what that means. The concept seems pretty simple, the more air the higher the ride height, the less air the lower it sits. I guess there are a couple ways to set it up with varous abilities to adjust air pressure but its all still a big mystery to me and would appreciate someone posting a detailed summary on the ABSOLUTE RIGHT WAY to set up a performance suspension with bags. I think it would be nice to have the ability to raise my trucks height if i were in a bad area with rough streets but i would also like to have it sitting just right on some nice dubs when im tooling around town but PERFORMANCE always comes 1st with me and i'll go with whatever set up provides the best in that respect.

Other than front and rear sway bars how else can you improve handleing on our trucks? I already have power steering..... what else can i do? Also .... whats the REAL DEAL with the new "tubed A pillars"? At what point are they needed and will they improve handleing on any suspension set up?