Bad transaction with "insanebehavior" : update matter resolved

[shifty]

I loathe the day I would ever need to post a "bad dealing" about another forum member, but this weekend takes the cake, and I'm out $500, so ... here goes.

insanebehavior, showed up at the 67-72 forum in the past few weeks and started posting pictures of his seriously kickass projects

(note to self: just b/c someone works on projects that look cool on the internet DOES NOT mean they are a cool, reasonable, or honest person)

So, one of the pictures he shared was of a "powdercoated C10 frame with ART rear suspension". He said he was planning to hack it up so he could install a step-notch in the rear, if you do a search on the guy, you can see a couple of diff't places he mentions this - it seemed totally crazy to me (should have been a sign), so I asked him if he wanted to swap frames with me (my virgin frame + cash for his complete frame), rather than hack up his current frame that he put a couple thousand into already.

"It seems like a mutually beneficial deal," I told him. He agreed.

We talked on the phone, he sent some blurry pictures using his iPhone, told me it was notched in the front for the PorterBuilt DropMember he'd bought, and I said, "this is ok, just leave the notch there, I may use it later". We settled on a price of $2,000 (plus my frame, in trade). I asked for some more pictures (less blurry), and asked again that he DID NOT patch up the front notch to get it "back to stock" after he suggested he wanted to (this is important later).

Saturday morning, I rented a friend's truck and trailer in exchange for buying a new $130 hitch for it, I loaded up my (virgin, spotless, never-been-wrecked-or-hacked) frame and headed to FL on this past Saturday morning. Got into town and we made plans to meet. Made it to his place early the next morning, we unloaded my frame and started pulling the front steering and drivetrain mounts to swap them to his frame while he worked on his insanely nice '64 Chevelle.

When I was trying to swap over the idler arm and steering linkage, I noticed that he went ahead and patched the front notch and had the frame repainted, even though I asked him not to TWICE. Unfortunately, the patch deleted one of the two required holes for the idler arm support, so I couldn't even bolt up my idler arm to the frame completely. He asked me to just bolt one side up so we could look at it; when we did, it just wouldn't sit straight, and while eyeballing things, no matter how we bent it, we couldn't get the center link to sit straight in relation to the front crossmember, which suggests to me that the frame was out of whack in the front (wreck?) because everything else was straight.

He prompted me to "drill the hole in approximately the right location and shim the idler arm mount with some washers". I told him I thought this was ghetto-rigging it, I plan on showing the truck and can't have crap like that on it - not to mention, this is a HUGE safety concern for me. You don't just rig up crap to make it "fit", there are longer-term consequences to think about.

I explained to him that this problem was a dealbreaker for me - I only have 3mm of clearance between the center link and GenIII oilpan as it is, so this this has HUGE potential to be a problem for me requiring more fabrication than I was comfortable with at the price he was asking. For me, I didn't feel like I could justify the $325 in gas to drive down/back, then another $2,000 on a pre-painted frame that I couldn't use - or that would require me to figure out alignment and possibly notch the my crossmember or oil pan over.

While coming to this decision, I looked over the frame, and noticed a few other things he neglected to tell me about it while in conversation (he'd expressed it was "mint"):

• The frame had a 1" crack or tear on the passenger side about 4" behind the front crossmember
  
• The frame had several "aftermarket" holes drilled or blown through it (look like torch/plasma holes)
  
• The front passenger framehorn had been welded up to patch something (from wreck, I assume)
  
• The frame was out out of "true" diagonally on the front framehorns by at least an inch
  
• There were a few key parts I would need to drill or grind off the frame to make my LS1/T56 fit and still use stock parts like e-Brake and hydraulics (clutch provision, auto tranny provision, etc.) More work for me. we explicitly discussed the absense of these items on my frame
  
• The frame was excessively rippled in a couple of spots (probably from previous wreck(s))
  
• Someone left dead hardware bolted to the frame in at least one place - a nut and bolt with a star washer right next to where the idler arm bolts up -I couldn't understand what kind of a hack would leave this stuff on after sandblasting and actually powdercoat it into the frame (?!?!!) This was one of a few things I noticed that were out of whack.
  
• The "patch" for the notch looked like a hack-job, as if someone bondo'd up the inside, then painted over it.
  
• There was a lot of leftover sand or other debris that was sitting in various places on the frame which got painted over - very rough finish in those spots. I couldn't tell if the frame was powdercoated or painted, although it was clear it was painted recently, because he offered me a "matching can of paint" to go with the frame.
  

At that point, I told him, "Look...I can't justify this purchase. Too much work for me to do for something you said was already perfect, and I can't risk the steering problems it's looking like I'll have. It's too big of a risk on my side."

Of course, he was pissed. He blew up and jumped my ass talking about "this is what is wrong with the young people today", and "this leaves a really bad taste in my mouth". "We had a deal, you sealed it, and I put money to get my welding guy and body guy in here to fix that notch and repaint the frame. I'm out $200-300!!"

I felt this wasn't fair - if he would have listened to me when I said, "DON'T patch the notch!", he would have been out no money at all, and we could walk away cordially, albeit I would be out $325 (for gas ... not to mention the 16 hours of my life I can't get back), but ... at least with a sliver of pride.

He was overly persistent about me paying for the work that he "did for me". I'm thinking to myself...I didn't put a gun to his head for crying out loud! In fact, I asked him NOT to do it!! Since this is the main source for our impasse, it's his fault, right?

He told me I need to "take responsibility for my actions and the deal *I* made with *HIM*". I'm confused - why wasn't he taking responsibility for his own actions and owning up to installing the patch that caused our issues?

I explained to him very nicely that:

A) I asked him twice NOT to do that work that cost him the money he was complaining about.

B) I am already out $325 in gas when this is all done, and an entire weekend away from home, on the road.

C) There is stuff here he didn't tell me about the frame, and I could have never known because he didn't provide any additional pictures for me to see - he assured me the frame was "mint", and I trusted him because he was a forum member, and my dozens of forum transactions have always been good.

He didn't want to hear it.

I told him, "Look...I am a stand-up guy and have that reputation on the truck forum and in real life. I feel bad you're out, I can empathize, I am out money here too. If I wasn't serious about buying, I wouldn't have my frame here, I wouldn't have $2,000 in my back pocket, and we wouldn't be talking right now. If you really feel that slighted, and you feel like you're out that much, I'll leave you $100 cash right here for your time. This is me meeting your halfway on the work you had done "for me", even though I explicitly asked you twice NOT to do it."

He absolutely refused and said I needed to pay him the full $300-400 to "make this right" before I leave. (The number suddenly increased?)

I told him this wasn't at all fair. So, now I'm not leaving his property until I give him at least half, which is $200? A friend of his showed up to finish the purchase of his lifted yellow C10 off of him - up to this point, nobody else was nearby. This could have been a blessing in disguise (thank you, Lord)

After a lot of him telling me I was "so wrong" and needed to "own up and take responsibility", I was getting a bit concerned at this point, because I am outnumbered, I am feeling threatened, my truck, trailer and frame are all in his shop on his property - He had me by the balls.

So, I told him the most I would be comfortable giving him for his time and shop space is $150, which was half of the $200-300 amount he initially said he invested in the repair. He still refused. Finally, I said, "Look. $175 and I'm out of here." He got pissed, said "Fine, leave it on the table here, load up your crap and get the hell out of here".

I left the money on the table (a $100, $50, $20 and $5 bill, to be exact) and packed my stuff to leave. He put a motor mount on top of it (?) and walked over to ***** about the incident to his buddy (grossly exagerating what happened in his favor, as he would probably do here).

Thankfully - and probably the only stand-up thing that happened (thanks, Scott, wherever you are) they eventually came over and helped me roll my frame onto my trailer, and left to do some transaction related to the sale of his lifte C10 (on sunday?).

I admit, he apologized for blowing up on me before leaving, which I found strange, but it was the Christian thing to do, and I appreciate that. It doesn't get me the frame I was expecting, NOR does it get me the $175 I gave up just to get out of there.

I packed up. I put all of his tools away that I used - because I would expect anyone else to do the same for me, regardless the circumstances...that is the kinda guy I am, and how my parents brought me up. I spooled up his compressor line and placed all of the pneumatic tools I was using on the table next to the $175 cash. I hopped in my truck and took off, headed for home, an 8-hour drive, empty-handed, complete waste of a trip, and feeling completely and totally freaking ripped off. 16 hours wasted. $325 in gas. $175 in "make-nice" money. $130 for a trailer hitch in exchange for borrowing a truck and trailer.

I called him as I was headed out, he wasn't back yet. I told him I put away everything, spooled up all of the hoses and cords, and left any tools I couldn't find a place for on the table, next to the money (which was there when I left).

He calls back 20 mins later and asks me, "Where's that money you left?"

I tell him it's on the table, next to the pneumatic tools. He tells me he's going to look out on the driveway, it must have "blown away" (yet it was under a motor mount he put on it?).

I ask him, "Are you trying to screw with me?"

He says "No, not screwing with you, it's not here. Maybe my brother is messing with me, hold on, let me go ask. I'll call you back."

He calls back and says his brother said he didn't do it. I can't tell if either he is screwing with me, someone over there is screwing with him, or what the hell is going on. I think he's trying to get me for the full $350 he finally tried to say he spent, but ... I could've gotten my entire frame sandblasted and powdercoated for that kind of money. Hell, I could have bought a new frame for less.

I do not know what to do about this situation, but I've been effectively called a liar, and the guy was harassing me about the money - I got a PM from him about 12 hours ago saying he still couldn't find the money. He just emailed me to boot - and this is after three phone calls on Sunday evening while driving home.

With God as my witness, I left this guy the money. I'll be honest - Deep inside I really regret leaving him anything...I left the cash because of concern for my personal safety, cooperation, and because he genuinely made me feel like a piece of crap while I was there, which is something nobody should ever need to go through.

[EDIT] He just dropped a line, the money turned up in his lock box, so this has been cleared up. Apparently the maintenance guy stopped by, saw it, and locked it up.

So, I'm out $500 at this point because of this deal gone bad, and he's out ... nothing, from what I can tell - I could have bagged and notched my truck for $500 (w/o compressor or tank), so now I *REALLY* felt like crap because I just blew away 25% of my entire buildup budget and have nothing to show but a dent in my pride and self esteem.


Just know - I got shafted and was put in a really uncomfortable spot - I'm afraid it could happen to others.

Moreover, I just want everyone else to see this - do you think it's fair? What would you have done?

Bottom line:

• If he would have listened to me about not welding that stupid patch, he would have been out ZERO dollars and he couldn't have gotten pissed about much of anything
  
• His decision to ignore my request and proceed with patching the frame is both the source for my not wanting to buy it, AND the source for him being out of pocket, and subsequently me being even MORE out of pocket ($500 instead of just $325).
  
• I left him money, and now he's trying to stalk me with hopes for another $175 because now "he can't find it"? His property is well isolated and there were other people at the house when I left. I know, I know ... "blame the new guy", right?
  
• He did not disclose (what I feel) are important details about the condition of the frame, which made it worth a lot less than the asking price, IMHO. You can take a crappy frame, throw a $1700 Air Ride Tech suspension on it, and that doesn't necessarily make it worth $2k + trade.

Be aware.

And Mark, if you're reading this - think long and hard, because you know what I've posted here is 100% accurate. I DID NOT take your money - you DID take my money, however.

[EDIT] Since the time of this post, I've received an email from Mark trying to clear the air. I appreciate the gesture. This entire deal could have been a matter of "miscommunication", but I took the time to post this, so unless a moderator or admin pulls it down, it's sticking just in case someone else deals with crap like this from EITHER him or me.

[pcmcobra]

shifty,
I have to say, you handled this better than I would. Sorry you got screwed...it does happen.
With $ in my pocket, I'd bring a friend, or a "piece", or a big stick and let the cards fall
...I'm po'ed just reading your story!
Hope it all works out...

[68 short step]

shifty, NOBODY should threaten you to give them $...i dont care about weld this patch here, or dont weld this patch...fact of the matter is it wasnt as expected and you didnt want it anymore...sure this guy can get mad and whinne about the deal not going through, but he steped over the line when he bullied you out of 175$....says alot about this lieing, bully, jerk.....after ready this i hope he sends you the 175$ back plus $ for YOUR time....insanebehavior is a fitting name, id add "im a bully with insanebehavior" and ill pay the 5$ to chage your name if your instrested???!!!!

[shifty]

Oh, he didn't threaten me directly, please don't get me wrong, and he was pissed. He told me when apologizing that "he hasn't been pissed in 4 or five days, and was overdue". But it was enough to shake me enough to question what his intent or motives were.

[68 short step]

the fact he even told you to give him any $ was over the line....i didnt get ya wrong...

[Liz]

That in itself is sad. If someone is angry enough in life to be mad that often... they need help

[killer71]

i agree with liz. it's funny he has a problem with "younger people" and yet he handled the situation like a child that didn't get his way....people need to grow up!

[oj70chevy]

Shifty, its been said before but I have to say you handled that way better then I would of. First off I would not have given him any money, infact I would of asked him for money to help pay for the gas you spent to get down there and to go back. not to mention he misrepresented the frame. I truly feel sorry for you bro. if he was any decent type of guy he would of gave you some money for gas. At the least I would of offered you a beer and some food.

Ralph

[shifty]

The more I think about it and talk about it, the more I really feel I should have just taken the money and left....

..... BUT .... at that very moment, it felt like a very dishonest thing to do, and at the end of the day, I have my Maker to answer to. I *DID* leave the money for him, and no matter how you slice it, within the confines of the law, taking it could be construed as "theft". I know, I know, him even ASKING me for it in the first place was wrong, but think about that - if someone does you wrong by stealing your car, if you go steal their car, that doesn't make everything "OK" - you are just as guilty of car theft as the other person.

I do agree with everyone that the $175 I was asked to cough up was completely unnecessary and not right. You know, It's amazing how clear everything is in retrospect; HOWEVER, I don't necessarily think he owes me for gas, food or trailering expenses. From my perspective, as a buyer, I am responsible for trying to obtain as much information about a purchase as humanly possible BEFORE I make arrangements to come see it and/or pick it up. In reality, I am at fault for not pressing him for more information and for some much better pictures so I could make the decision to buy or not. Hell, I could have also sent a friend over to check it out for me before driving down - there ARE ways I could have protected myself here, so .... I am partially at fault, and I can accept that fault and be OK with eating the $325 in gas - and after buying this $130 hitch, I now have unlimited "borrowing" rights to a truck & trailer, which I will use in the future, so I look at that as an investment.


I guess the thing to consider here for others is ... If you don't think his way of doing business (making me pay for his mistakes) is a good and fair way to do business, spread the word about him to others. Reputation goes a long way on the internet - just look at what happened to that guy on Pirate4x4.com and also look at James Blanton (the deadbeat from Texas) and how everyone knows to be wary of doing business. The internet is a powerful tool for getting the word out.

And if having everyone on the world wide web know about the way he does business is worth $175 to him, or even $325 (that's half my gas expense + all the money I gave him), then ... he's obviously shady, and I'll leave this thread as a permanent record in case others stumble across him.

The more I think about it, the more pissed I get. I need to stop checking back and looking at this topic

[Hart_Rod]

Shifty,

I think you hit the nail on the head, do your homework before you leave. This doesn't justify irrational behaviour, but it does remove any wiggle room. You did the right thing and should have no problem sleeping at night, I'm not so sure about him. Bottomline, your reputation and conscience is worth more than $175, apparently his isn't.

[killer71]

Originally Posted by Hart_Rod

Shifty,

I think you hit the nail on the head, do your homework before you leave. This doesn't justify irrational behaviour, but it does remove any wiggle room. You did the right thing and should have no problem sleeping at night, I'm not so sure about him. Bottomline, your reputation and conscience is worth more than $175, apparently his isn't.

well said hart rod.....my dad always told me a man is only as good as his name and i think that applies right here...

shifty you learned a lesson i don't have to tell ya....you know it and that's what counts...you did what you thought was right and that's all a man can do...hindsight is and always will be 20/20.

[toomanytoyz]

Shift,

1st of All Sorry for your Loss, I would have done exactly as you Chose to do under those circumstance's, The World is Full of Wacko People ...............

Rick

[insanebehavior]

DEAR FELLOW FORUM MEMBERS. IT BOTHERS ME TO HAVE TO GIVE THE COMMENTS BY SHIFTY THE DIGNITY OF A COMMENT BUT THIS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND. IF THE REALITY OF SHIFTY'S COMMENTS WERE TRUE, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY FEEL THE WAY OTHER MEMBERS ARE FEELING WHEN LISTENING TO THE STORY. UNFORTUNATLY, IT IS THE ONE SIDE OF A TWO SIDED STORY. IT IS A SAD DAY FOR ME TO SEE THAT ANOTHER MEMBER HAS CHOSEN TO PRESENT AN EXAGERATED ONE SIDE VERSION OF A CHAIN OF EVENTS OF A SITUATION WHICH WAS ENTIRELY ORCHESTRATED BY SHIFTY.

LETS GET THIS STORY IN PROPER PERSPECTIVE. I CAN CLEARLY STATE I HAD NO INTENTIONS OF SELLING MY FRAME UNTIL SHIFTY MADE A ONLINE PROPOSAL TO BUY IT AT A LOW PRICE. IF YOU GO TO MY THREAD http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=275456&page=4 SHIFTY SOLICITEDD THE PURCHASE OF MY FRAME AND I QUOTE FROM QUOTE #3 FROM SHIFTY "that would suck to cut that c-notch out, especially after powdercoating that joker. how about you unbolt and keep that dropmember and do me a huge favor by selling me your existing notched frame for my project for $1,500-$2,000? or you could trade up (+ cash from me) for my virgin frame, which is damned rust free, no pits, no twists or bends no BS, just a nice solid frame (new cab mounts, too)

i bet i know a boardmember that lives less than 25 miles from my house that has (or can get) a virgin SWB frame for you to use ... Or you could have mine, I guess PICTURES OF MY FRAME WERE POSTED ON THE WEB AND HE SAW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS GETTING WHICH WAS A NICE POWDER COATED FRAME WITH ART REAR SUSPENSION. SO, I AGREED AT HIS REQUEST AND HE TOLD ME IT WAS A DONE DEAL AND ASKED IF HE COULD FORWARD A DEPOSIT WHICH I DECLINED. I SAID PAY ME WHEN YOU GET HERE. BOTTOM LINE HE ARRIVED WITH A ROLLING CHASIS WITH FULL SUSPENSION, FRONT ARMS, 4 WHEEL DRUM BRAKES, TRAILING ARMS STEERING, AND BRAKE LINES STILL ATTACHED. HE TOLD ME HE COULD REMOVE HIS ENTIRE SUSPENSION AND REATTACH IT TO MY NEW FRAME IN 45 - 75 MINUTES. IT APPREARED THE FRONT SUSPENSION AND DRUM BRAKES HAD NEVER BEEN OFF THE VEHICLE. HE WAS THERE 90 MINUTES AND HAD BARELY GOTTEN THE STEERING BOX REMOVED. HE THEN CLAIMED THE FRAME WAS DIFFERENT THAN HIS. WE QUICKLY CALLED MOTHER TRUCKERS AND WE WERE TOLD THE FRAMES WERE THE SAME. HIS WIFE CALLED AT 11:30 THINKING HE WAS ABOUT READY TO LEAVE BY HIS CALULATIONS AS I OVERHEAD HIM TELL HER HE WOULD NOT BE HOME BY 7 OR SO. BOTTOM LINE HE GOT OVER HIS HEAD. THERE WAS NO WAY HE COULD ACCOMPLISH HIS PLAN AND HE CUT AND RUN. HE GOT OVER HIS HEAD.


WHEN SHIFTY LEFT MY HOUSE, HE DID SO WITH A HANDSHAKE. WE HAD BOTH SAID SOMETHINGS WE REGRETED BUT QUICKLY APPOLGIZED AND WE REALIZED THERE WERE MUCH MORE IMPORTANTS THINGS THAN THE INCONVENENCE THIS HAD CAUSED BOTH OF US. BY SHIFTY'S ADMISSION, HIS WIFE KEEPS A CLOSE EYE ON FINANCES. I CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHEN HE GOT HOME THERE WAS A DISAPPOINTED PERSON AND MONEY SPENT FOR NOTHING WHICH CAUSED SOME RESENTMENT. I HAD NO CONTROL OVER THIS MAN DRIVING TO FLORIDA AN THEN CHANGING HIS MIND. THE FRAME WAS GOOD AND WAS AS DESCRIBED.


FOLKS, AS I TOLD SHIFTY, ITS A BAD WORLD WHEN PEOPLE DO NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR THERE OWN ACTIONS. HE SOLICITED THE FRAME, DROVE TO FLORIDA, AND BACKED OUT. I CANNOT TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR THAT. THIS IS CLEARLY AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE USING A GREAT AND POSITIVE FORUM FOR REVENGE IN A MATTER THAT HE IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR.

IN CLOSING, I HAVE ALREADY RECIEVED 3 VERY LENGTHY RAMBLING HATEFUL EMAILS FROM SHIFTY WHICH I HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE. MAYBE THIS HAS FRUSTRATED HIM AND CAUSED THIS IRRATIONAL ACT OF BETRAYAL TOWARD ME?? MY ONLY OBJECT WITH THIS IS TO TELL WHAT HAPPENED IN MY EYES AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. I WILL IMAGINE THERE WILL BE AN LONG EMAIL DENOUCING MY WORDS. PLEASE NOTE THAT I HAVE ONLY TOLD MY STORY AND WILL LEAVE IT AT THAT. I AM NOT RECRUTING ANYONE FOR MY SIDE AS I AM GOOD WITH THE MAN UPSTAIRS THAT I DID WHAT I WAS SUPPOSE TO DO AND TOOK RESPONSIBILTY FOR THE REST.

PEACE BROTHER TRUCKERS.

MARK

[Liz]

Originally Posted by insanebehavior

DEAR FELLOW FORUM MEMBERS. IT BOTHERS ME TO HAVE TO GIVE THE COMMENTS BY SHIFTY THE DIGNITY OF A COMMENT BUT THIS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND. IF THE REALITY OF SHIFTY'S COMMENTS WERE TRUE, I WOULD ABSOLUTELY FEEL THE WAY OTHER MEMBERS ARE FEELING WHEN LISTENING TO THE STORY. UNFORTUNATLY, IT IS THE ONE SIDE OF A TWO SIDED STORY. IT IS A SAD DAY FOR ME TO SEE THAT ANOTHER MEMBER HAS CHOSEN TO PRESENT AN EXAGERATED ONE SIDE VERSION OF A CHAIN OF EVENTS OF A SITUATION WHICH WAS ENTIRELY ORCHESTRATED BY SHIFTY.

LETS GET THIS STORY IN PROPER PERSPECTIVE. I CAN CLEARLY STATE I HAD NO INTENTIONS OF SELLING MY FRAME UNTIL SHIFTY MADE A ONLINE PROPOSAL TO BUY IT AT A LOW PRICE. IF YOU GO TO MY THREAD http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...=275456&page=4 SHIFTY SOLICITEDD THE PURCHASE OF MY FRAME AND I QUOTE FROM QUOTE #3 FROM SHIFTY "that would suck to cut that c-notch out, especially after powdercoating that joker. how about you unbolt and keep that dropmember and do me a huge favor by selling me your existing notched frame for my project for $1,500-$2,000? or you could trade up (+ cash from me) for my virgin frame, which is damned rust free, no pits, no twists or bends no BS, just a nice solid frame (new cab mounts, too)

i bet i know a boardmember that lives less than 25 miles from my house that has (or can get) a virgin SWB frame for you to use ... Or you could have mine, I guess PICTURES OF MY FRAME WERE POSTED ON THE WEB AND HE SAW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS GETTING WHICH WAS A NICE POWDER COATED FRAME WITH ART REAR SUSPENSION. SO, I AGREED AT HIS REQUEST AND HE TOLD ME IT WAS A DONE DEAL AND ASKED IF HE COULD FORWARD A DEPOSIT WHICH I DECLINED. I SAID PAY ME WHEN YOU GET HERE. BOTTOM LINE HE ARRIVED WITH A ROLLING CHASIS WITH FULL SUSPENSION, FRONT ARMS, 4 WHEEL DRUM BRAKES, TRAILING ARMS STEERING, AND BRAKE LINES STILL ATTACHED. HE TOLD ME HE COULD REMOVE HIS ENTIRE SUSPENSION AND REATTACH IT TO MY NEW FRAME IN 45 - 75 MINUTES. IT APPREARED THE FRONT SUSPENSION AND DRUM BRAKES HAD NEVER BEEN OFF THE VEHICLE. HE WAS THERE 90 MINUTES AND HAD BARELY GOTTEN THE STEERING BOX REMOVED. HE THEN CLAIMED THE FRAME WAS DIFFERENT THAN HIS. WE QUICKLY CALLED MOTHER TRUCKERS AND WE WERE TOLD THE FRAMES WERE THE SAME. HIS WIFE CALLED AT 11:30 THINKING HE WAS ABOUT READY TO LEAVE BY HIS CALULATIONS AS I OVERHEAD HIM TELL HER HE WOULD NOT BE HOME BY 7 OR SO. BOTTOM LINE HE GOT OVER HIS HEAD. THERE WAS NO WAY HE COULD ACCOMPLISH HIS PLAN AND HE CUT AND RUN. HE GOT OVER HIS HEAD.


WHEN SHIFTY LEFT MY HOUSE, HE DID SO WITH A HANDSHAKE. WE HAD BOTH SAID SOMETHINGS WE REGRETED BUT QUICKLY APPOLGIZED AND WE REALIZED THERE WERE MUCH MORE IMPORTANTS THINGS THAN THE INCONVENENCE THIS HAD CAUSED BOTH OF US. BY SHIFTY'S ADMISSION, HIS WIFE KEEPS A CLOSE EYE ON FINANCES. I CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHEN HE GOT HOME THERE WAS A DISAPPOINTED PERSON AND MONEY SPENT FOR NOTHING WHICH CAUSED SOME RESENTMENT. I HAD NO CONTROL OVER THIS MAN DRIVING TO FLORIDA AN THEN CHANGING HIS MIND. THE FRAME WAS GOOD AND WAS AS DESCRIBED.


FOLKS, AS I TOLD SHIFTY, ITS A BAD WORLD WHEN PEOPLE DO NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR THERE OWN ACTIONS. HE SOLICITED THE FRAME, DROVE TO FLORIDA, AND BACKED OUT. I CANNOT TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR THAT. THIS IS CLEARLY AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE USING A GREAT AND POSITIVE FORUM FOR REVENGE IN A MATTER THAT HE IS COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR.

IN CLOSING, I HAVE ALREADY RECIEVED 3 VERY LENGTHY RAMBLING HATEFUL EMAILS FROM SHIFTY WHICH I HAVE CHOSEN TO IGNORE. MAYBE THIS HAS FRUSTRATED HIM AND CAUSED THIS IRRATIONAL ACT OF BETRAYAL TOWARD ME?? MY ONLY OBJECT WITH THIS IS TO TELL WHAT HAPPENED IN MY EYES AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. I WILL IMAGINE THERE WILL BE AN LONG EMAIL DENOUCING MY WORDS. PLEASE NOTE THAT I HAVE ONLY TOLD MY STORY AND WILL LEAVE IT AT THAT. I AM NOT RECRUTING ANYONE FOR MY SIDE AS I AM GOOD WITH THE MAN UPSTAIRS THAT I DID WHAT I WAS SUPPOSE TO DO AND TOOK RESPONSIBILTY FOR THE REST.

PEACE BROTHER TRUCKERS.

MARK

and are richer by $175 now... btw typing in all caps is commonly taken as yelling online.

[toomanytoyz]

Originally Posted by Liz

and are richer by $175 now... btw typing in all caps is commonly taken as yelling online.

Liz,

He is just staying true to his character with the Yelling................

Rick

[faribran]

Mark,
There is no way you can feel at peace with the way you acted....
think about it.... send Shifty his money back...

[shifty]

I am not ashamed to show any of this. Here are the three "hate" emails I sent to him, UNEDITED. This is after he messaged me here and via email telling me "the money was missing" when he got home.

This messages in (blue) are the ones he sent me - read it, and you'll know WHY it looks as if I'm pretty pissed in my emails (in black) you'll find in chronological order.

No money found. Money was not on table when I returned. I made
excuses for the money being gone because I was upset I thought maybe
it was misplaced. Scott re-affirmed with me today that it was not
there. Here again I trusted you again. I have made every excuse for
you because I could not believe you took the money. I was giving that
money to the 2 guys who worked so hard for you.

One way or another we pay for our misgivings. I am really disappointed.

After reading that, yes...I was pissed. You called me a liar and a theif, plain and simple. NOT TO MENTION the fact that you are STILL saying that your "body" and "welder" guys did the work "for me", yet I told you NOT to do that work!


Email #1 from me:

Ok, let me get this straight -

You are effectively calling me a liar right now, sir, and that is complete
and utter BS, so I'm going to lay it all out there for you.

We agree on one thing - you have a thief around your house, but with God as
my witness, that thief sure as hell is not me. Some day I hope you find out
where that money went, just so you end up feeling like the biggest asshole
in the world over this matter - Meanwhile, I think you know where you can
stick your accusations.

Think about it - Why the hell would I bother calling you back to update you
that I was leaving? If I were stealing the money from you, why in the HELL
would I bother to spend my time cleaning up the shop? None of this makes
sense, and I can't believe you can't see it. Believe me - and I want you to
think about this long and hard - if I wanted to screw around and do some
damage in your shop or take something of value, money or otherwise, there
were enough tools and supplies in your shop, and enough cars to damage that
I could have done a lot worse than $175 worth, and you probably would have
never known it. I'll get over $175 lost out of my pocket - even if it's
your fault you paid for the work, even after I told you NOT to do it TWICE.

You know, I hadn't wanted to take this any farther, but how about we post on
the truck forum and give everyone a view of what happened and have them
comment - I've done hundreds of transactions with other folks on that forum,
all of which were good - those people who know my reputation in-person, many
are people I've been dealing with for years - and you ask THEM about me and
how honest I am?

Bottom line: I left that money sitting on the table for you, exactly where
you weighted it down with that motor mount. I did not so much as TOUCH
anything that was on that table except to put down the tools, because I was
brought up right - to put things in back in their place when I was done with
them - regardless of whether the person who owned them is an asshole. No
matter how this deal went, I resent that you are accusing me of stealing
from you. I'll have you know that I am $500 out at this point - the $175 I
left you plus the $325 that I paid in gas to come down there. Unlike you
(per your own admission), I don't have excessive amounts of money to throw
away at projects. Every dime I have counts, and that measly $175 hurts more
than you will probably ever know.

And for the record - if we're going to "own up" here and be totally open
with our "accusation tossing" as you've done with me:

** You would be out zero dollars right now if you would have listened to me
when I told you TWICE not to patch up the notch. You said you wanted me to
"own up to my responsibilities?" Did I put a gun to your head and ask you
to weld that patch in? No, quite the opposite - now, own up to your
responsibility, OK? You're lucky I gave you $175, because I am a stand-up
guy, and I want to do what is "right" to lead to a conflict-free situation.
Just because you're older than I am doesn't mean you're exempt from the
rules - I don't play the "do as I say, not as I do" game. You did the task,
now eat the loss (and be happy it's $175 less than it could be)

** Your frame has been in a front-end collision (I measured diagonals on it
after you left, it's out of whack by well over an inch). There is a 1"
crack on the lower framerail, passenger side, 4"-8" behind the front
crossmember which is painted (powdercoated?) over. There is a half-ass
patch on the front passenger side framehorn, probably the source of the
previous collision. There is excessive ripping on the lower inner framerail
in the upward arch, probably where the frame was pulled straight. The patch
your "welding guy" put in looks like a hack job, and it looks like the
inside of the patch was slathered in bondo before being repainted. There is
also dead hardware, like the star washer, bolt and nut that you'll find on
the front framehorn, just in front of where you notched it - this looks
tacky. These are all the reasons that led me to decide that my safety, my
wife's safety, my family's safety is not worth giving you my flawless frame
for your hackjob of a frame.

** Steering is a crucial part of a properly functioning vehicle. "Shimming"
an idler arm with several washers is not only dangerous, it's completely
stupid. For you to even suggest I'm that big of an idiot is insulting, at
best.

I don't want to start **** with you. I don't want this to go any farther,
actually, but I also will not sit here and tolerate you slandering my
character and making false accusations against me. I am not a thief, and I
resent you saying so. I don't know why in the **** you insist on harassing
me and saying I stole that money, but ... if that's what you want to
believe...more power to you. You'll know the truth when you meet the man
upstairs.

Anyway, you need to own up to your own mistakes here, bud, and stop picking
on us "young guys". You also need to look long and hard around you -
because if you're not screwing with me right now ... someone very close to
you IS.

Good day,

Your response:

Jason, alright man, I believe u. I guess you wouldn't be so upset.
Forum? I don't know anyone on the forum and I am sure they don't allow
slander. My comments were directed to u which was only an opinion on
this mystery. I can only tell u my attempt to sell u the frame was
good hearted and true. I was doing my best to do a fellow member on
the forum right. All this other stuff has been a consequence of our
emotions and we BOTH own it.

Email #2 from me:

Mark,

We do both own it, and yes, I am pissed. I don't like people calling me a
liar, I am a stand-up guy. Call it "circumstance", but truly - I am getting
the proverbial "**** end of the stick" here.

I'm out 16 hours of my life.
I'm out the $130 I had to pay to buy a hitch for the truck I borrowed.
I'm out the $175 I left for you to "make this right", even though this
expense was covering work I asked you TWICE not to do.
I'm out the $325 I spent in gas money to get down there and back.
Finally, I'm out the chunk of pride, trust and self respect I've lost over
this deal.

I've chalked this up to a $630 lesson learned. I'm just pissed because I
could have spent that $630 on a full bag and notch setup from SuicideDoors,
and ... my project now gets put on hold over a "misunderstanding", which I'm
still being harassed about.

Call it what you want. I know what I did and didn't do here - I did leave
you the money. I did not feel what you proposed with the frame was safe. I
do feel slighted, and I also feel like I've made my peace.

I'm good with the man upstairs over this one. I hope you are, too.

And finally, I assume the third email you're talking about is in reference to a PM - you sent me a message saying, "guess this was not meant to be my day. money was not on the table were i left it." and i responded with:

Mark, I'll tell you something:

I am not screwing around with you, but I certainly think someone is.

With God as my witness, when I left, that money was on the table, plain and simple. Who all was at the house when I left? There was a water van there, the same one the guy, woman and kid got out of. You say your brother was home, as well? Was anyone else home? How about getting all of those people to swear on a Bible that they didn't take it and see what happens? If the thought of going to hell doesn't entice someone there to come clean, then I don't know what will.

Seriously - If I would have known the money was going to wind up "magically disappearing", I would have kept it myself. Lord knows I'm already out $325 as it is, so bumping that number up to a nice, round $500 and me with empty hands is far from the easiest thing to do. I can't explain to you just what a ***** it was for me to swallow my pride and make the choice I made to be a "stand up guy" and pay you for the time involved with you doing that extra work, even if I expressly asked you not to.

The money was there. Please let me know what comes up. I don't think it's really feasible that a neighbor came and took it, but I don't know your area or what to expect, nor do I know who else stopped by in between. I just did what you said - left it on the table.

I'm really sorry things didn't work out, but, in my case, that money turning up missing just adds insult to injury (for me), and I can imagine it's leaving you hotter than a pig in a dutch oven. I can't be Columbo for you and investigate the matter - and I'm sorry to say, I am not going to pay you twice.

Please dig deeper, the money was absolutely there when I left.

You then sent another message later telling me "my maintenance man stopped by when no one was there and for some reason put the money in my key safe out in the garage. he said because i had left the garage doors open he thought it should be put away. i have a habit of leaving money out. thought you would want to know."

And I responded with:

Thank you. I am a stand-up guy and I do not steal from people, so I am glad it turned up.

I still honestly DO NOT think you should have gotten the money, since it is YOUR fault that you put that notch in - I asked you twice not to weld it back, and we wouldn't be in this mess if you hadn't done that (I'd still be out $325, but w/o any hard feelings).

I hope you truly understand that your loss in this case was your fault because of decisions you made and actions you personally took, and, seriously, I'm out way more money than you ever will be over this "transaction".

You know, the more I think about it, the more of a shmuck I feel like. Someone said it best when I was talking to them earlier: "Nobody should ever be obligated to finish a business transaction without a signed contract and without actually seeing the product first and putting your hands on it - pictures don't do anything justice".

I'll let you mill over that one. Meanwhile, it's not my place to request this, but, hey - please don't jump to conclusions in the future. Just because you don't know someone doesn't mean they're out to get you and totally dick you over.

I never walked into this with any ill intent towards you, and I feel like I've taken the **** end of the stick at every turn.

I still apologize for flying off the handle - but try putting yourself in a position of being called a theif and a liar after handing someone money for ... nothing ... and imagine how you'd feel.

Thanks for letting me check out your shop, share some time wrenching, and test-fit things to see if your frame was suited to my needs. It is unfortunate that it was not.

Now ... let any man here argue that I was being "irrational" in any of the above correspondence with you. I might have went off on a tangent here or there, but I was well-worded, polite, and MOST importantly, I WAS TELLING THE TRUTH THE WHOLE TIME.

I just want to reiterate one thing:

I made the deal. The deal was for a NOTCHED frame with the DropMember FRONT NOTCH STILL IN PLACE. You did not produce this frame for me. In fact, I told you not to patch it twice, but you still patched it. Then you made me pay for half the work before I left your property.

Everyone above is right - you should refund the money, because YOU also did not keep to the deal we had agreed upon, yet you felt it was necessary to make me pay for your mistake?

Not fair.

If you want my Paypal info, I'm happy to oblige in you offering a refund and put this to rest - the more I think about this, the more I realize you effectively robbed me, put me to blame for everything, and are not accepting the responsibility for your actions, which is not the mature thing to do.

You accused me of being a liar and stealing "your" money? Who is the real theif here?

[shifty]

PS - just to put this out there - there were also phone calls between this, but I obviously can't transcribe the words we exchanged, which were cordial, but you stilll insinuated that I stole the money from you at more than one point in those phone calls. That is why I got so hot and blew up in my first phone call. Try and have someone call you a liar to your face four or five times when you know you're innocent...THEN try to write an email as nice as my first response above...

[shifty]

PPS - Here are the pictures you sent to me. I asked during a phone call for more, and I believe I asked for better quality shots.

I could have never seen anything that I mention wrong above in these photos, and I feel you should have disclosed this information. Cracks in the frame are pretty serious, and that one in yours is plain as day.

Anyone can look at this and say, "damn, that looks pretty badass". But then look at the itemized list above of stuff that I found wrong with it and tell me how badass it sounds then.

[shifty]

I may have a couple more laying around in email, but many were just shots of the same stuff, and none of them showed the front of the frame - the back half was great (except for the spotty weld/patch work on the passenger side where you can see a rusty water line coming down near the notch).

[shifty]

I guess the easiest way I can break this down for you is simple:

Did you ask me to pay you $175 to the cost of work I asked you NOT to do twice?

YES.

Did I ask you to do that work?

NO.

If I asked you not to do the work, and you paid for it to be done, do I *own* any *responsibility* for that money?

NO.

Would you be out money if you would have listened to me when I told you not to do the work?

NO.

Would I still be out money?

YES.

Gas money $325 and trailer hitch $130. But to some degree I would deserve it for not doing my homework, just as YOU deserve to be out some money for not listening to me and not providing the frame we agreed on.

Bottom line - You've got money in pocket and are supposedly out about a hundred bucks - maybe two hundred bucks - for work you should not have had done in the first place. Meanwhile, my expense goes from $455 to $630 that I'm out of pocket total for that trip, not including food because of your mistake?

That's the part I don't get.

[1LoC10]

just a quick question for Insanebehavior... If all was good when Shifty arrived at your house, and he was paying you the money for the frame, would you have told him the price had gone up $175 sense you last talked? just curious

[killer71]

Just Curious....
why was the front notch patched if the buyer specifically asked that the seller leave it as it was?

why was it felt that $175 needed to swap hands?

[shifty]

Well, if you need any more clarification, this is something he emailed to me BEFORE I agreed to the deal, and the reason I can't believe things went down this way:

(his message in blue, mine in black)

Tell you what - You couldn't find a person that would get better use out of
it...if you don't mind ... Let me know what you'd want for the frame with
everything pictured including the stock crossmember, but excluding the
wheels and dropmember. If you want to quote me prices with/without the disc
brakes, that would be great also (so, two quotes, please).

Think about the number and what you want to get out of it - I'll get back to
you within 24 hours and drop you a downpayment if you need it (I'm really
serious about buying).

No deposit. I am sure there would be others willing to take it if you change your mind. I have not even advertised it. I will have to repair the notch I put in the front for the steering. You will have to paint that part when you get the frame home. I will also have the front powder coatedcross member for you. You will need to bolt it back in when you get it home.

As you see, he clearly opted to repair the notch, without my even saying anything about it. He also told me the patch would not be painted! It's pretty obvious that I didn't ask him to do this, and in fact, told him twice on the phone that I didn't want him to patch it (and I believe once via email or PM), because I may actually use it, and if it's properly notched and reinforced it would be OK as it was.

So ... yeah. I paid money for work he chose to do - I didn't tell him to do it. I told him NOT to do it.

To boot - "I am sure others are willing to take it if you change your mind". If so, then why the hell was I prompted to pay $200-300 for the work, then later that price went up to $300-400? Why did I pay $175 out of pocket? I guess other people wouldn't want it now?

I guess I'm the bad guy here, right? The same guy who stole the $175, eh? OK. Sure thing. I pay for work you choose to do. that's fair. I pay $325 for gas and $130 for a trailer hitch to come down and pick up a frame that winds up being half-ass in the front half, and I'm the bad guy who needs to cough up $$$.

I think you should cough up some dollars.

Even Scott was interested in buying the frame before I left, and he was pinging Mark about what he'd want for it, because he was thinking about putting it on his street rod truck...

[krue]

Well I know who I would do business with, and who I wouldn't. I may not agree with Shifty on any political issue but I know he's a stand up guy.