Register or Log In To remove these advertisements. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
11-02-2010, 10:37 AM | #1 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Placerville CA
Posts: 186
|
Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Hard to tell by photo but my left front wheel is leaning out on top about 1/2 inch. Noticed it when I took body off.
Anybody know what might be the cause for this? I haven't taken the wheel assembly apart yet, hoping it's a combination of bad bearings, kingpin and some adjustment. I did a search but could not find much that I could understand relating to this. |
11-02-2010, 11:40 AM | #2 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toppenish, WA
Posts: 15,710
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
If that is the tire that has been running on the front for a while it looks like the truck has too much positive camber.
Look at the outside edge as compared to the inside edge and it looks like the weight of the truck has been riding on that outside edge rather than the whole tread of the tire. It looks like the outside edge is rounded off while the inside edge still has a defined edge/corner on it. Excessive toe in or out usually causes the tire to look and feel like it has been drug sideways down the road and the tread will have a feathered appearance and feel to it if you rub your fingers across it sideways back and forth. I won't say it can't happen but I have never seen caster even if it is excessive to cause tire wear. Usually if the caster isn't right the rig doesn't want to track right going down the road and if it is excessive steering can be harder than normal or in extreme cases you get a bit of tire flop but I've only seen that on dragsters. As far as correcting the camber, after you have the truck back together with the front axle pieces all rebuilt/replaced and in top shape you will have to take it to a shop that is setup to adjust the axle. That is usually a shop that specializes in big trucks and rv's anymore as the tires shops with the fancy computer alignment machines usually aren't set up to do it. It involves bending the axle by chaining it to the alignment rack and using a jack in the right spot. I wouldn't put a bunch of paint or powder coating on it before i took it to the alignment shop though as it would most likely get scratched up. With that it may be put it together, have it corrected, take it apart and paint it and put it back together. That is if you want to paint or powdercoat it up real nice. If you spray bomb it then just spray bomb it after they get done again. |
11-02-2010, 11:46 AM | #3 |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA USA
Posts: 2,454
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
It is normal for the wheel to be slightly out at the top. The service manual will have the specification for camber. AFAIK, the normal way to change it on these trucks is by bending the axle. Alignment shops that work on big trucks should be able to do this.
Ray
__________________
Live more responsibly. Eat lower on the food chain. Eat vegetarians. |
11-02-2010, 03:37 PM | #4 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Placerville CA
Posts: 186
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Wow....that would be bad news.....bent axle?
Seems it would take quite a force to bend one of these. Possibly hit from bottom? that would cause it to lean out right? I'll look for any major scars on the bottom of left side axle. |
11-02-2010, 05:56 PM | #5 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toppenish, WA
Posts: 15,710
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Not bent as in "bent" but knocked out enough so that it needs to be reset. Not a real big deal if you take it to the right shop.
I'd call Sacramento Spring and see if they do it or who they suggest if you don't know of anyone who does I beams in that area. |
11-02-2010, 06:52 PM | #6 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Placerville CA
Posts: 186
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Yea, good tip Mr. 48.........Thanks.
I checked Sacramento Spring website..... sounds like a "BFH" would do it, if not they use a bigger "BFH". The right shop ought to be able to perform precise measurement and make it right. I'll check around. |
11-04-2010, 01:00 PM | #7 |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 204
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
wait till you have the truck finished before you align it. you need all the weight that is going to be on the frame to make sure it doesnt change the camber over sitting there with just the frame holding it on the ground.
__________________
53 Chevy 3100 1/2 ton 1st Armored Division, OIF Veteran |
11-04-2010, 02:58 PM | #8 |
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Faribault, MN
Posts: 385
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Generally this is not a problem with a straight axle. When I worked in the alignment shop we would do it on repairables (4X4 w/straight axles) and never had a problem.
|
11-04-2010, 03:37 PM | #9 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Placerville CA
Posts: 186
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Thanks for the input.
I am going to proceed with new bearings, kingpins, install the new mono-leafs and new shocks. Mount up the motor & tranny & pretty much everything else and not worry too much about the axle thing for now. Prior to noticing the "lean" I decided to go out on a limb and popped on a "No Limit Engineering" rack & pinion P/S kit. Fits up to the straight axle. Curious if anyone has used this kit? A little pricey but I like the idea of the staight axle with P/S. I hope it doesn't end up being a piece of junk. |
07-14-2011, 04:01 PM | #10 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 1,176
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
how's that p/s kit from no limit?
Quote:
|
|
07-14-2011, 06:03 PM | #11 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toppenish, WA
Posts: 15,710
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Rob from No Limit Posts on the 67/72 Forum pretty often so you should be able to PM him if you have any questions on the steering.
Having driven my truck with the stock steering for at least 100,000 miles and another 100,000 with a subframe and power steering under it I can see the desire for power steering that works. |
02-06-2018, 12:38 PM | #12 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: So.Cal
Posts: 34
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Digging up old thread but new problem for me.
After installing 3" dropped axle, my camber is also positive, very similar to picture in first post but mine might not be as badly toed in. After what I am reading the only way to correct it bend axle? I am down in the So.Cal area so I will need to see which shops align these older trucks. |
02-06-2018, 01:43 PM | #13 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,450
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
|
02-06-2018, 03:11 PM | #14 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: So.Cal
Posts: 34
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Thank you for that whitedog
I have to say I am not too impressed with the dropped axle we installed, I would think this is something that would have already corrected when they sell these. This is now the third and separate issue we have had with installing this axle. |
02-07-2018, 04:31 AM | #15 |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 2,249
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
If your straight-axle truck is stripped down you should EXPECT to see positive camber.
If you don't have the full weight of the engine, transmission and front clip on your truck, straight axle vehicles will exhibit excessive camber (top of the wheel points outward). Axles are designed for a specific weight and when properly loaded they will deflect slightly bringing the camber into specs. |
02-07-2018, 07:47 AM | #16 |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lakes Region NH
Posts: 3,200
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
MiraclePieCo. I fully disagree about camber. The weight applied to the chassis has little bearing on camber angle with a solid front axle. Camber is a function of kingpin inclination angle and included angle in the spindle.
Independent suspension vehicles will definitely exhibit camber change with a change in chassis height and vehicle loading. I believe one of the worst examples of this is Ford's twin-I beam suspension. On a vehicle which does not carry a consistent load there is often no setting that provides good tire wear. DrKrankenstein, was your axle shipped with spindles? Have you checked the kingpin angle against mfgr specs? If the kingpin angle is correct but the camber is not, you may need a new spindle. |
02-07-2018, 10:19 AM | #17 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: So.Cal
Posts: 34
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Quote:
|
|
02-07-2018, 10:53 PM | #18 |
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: calgary alberta
Posts: 8,333
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
read post 13, it explains it right from the factory manual. one affects the other. I wouldn't, personally, spend money on any of it before getting the parts checked.
|
02-08-2018, 05:20 AM | #19 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 2,249
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Quote:
Below is a simplified illustration of the forces involved. Last edited by MiraclePieCo; 02-08-2018 at 05:42 AM. |
|
02-08-2018, 11:15 PM | #20 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toppenish, WA
Posts: 15,710
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
They will change after they are loaded. I would not change anything except getting the toe in close until I had the truck done to the point where all the weight was on it and it had been driven around the block.
If you bought a dropped axle from Nostalgia Sid it should be set on the money for what an I beam axle should be set at. If it is the Speedway junk all bets are off or if it is an old used one you don't know what it has been through. All of the older skinny tires rigs before about 1980 ran positive camber. Cadillac Deville was the only rig that called for negative and that was 1/4 neg on the passenger side tire. Most of those early Mustangs called for 1 degree positive. Neg camber didn't come into play until later when cars like my BMW 528I showed up with it so they could cut the corners better. That was a whole redesigned setup from the older rigs though. Simply meaning because your late model performance car that you drive daily has negative camber and the past three cars before that did there is nothing wrong with an I beam truck having positive camber as long as it isn't excessive. Adjusting camber on an I beam or "straight" axle takes setting it up on the alignment rack and actually chaining it or using designed hooks to tie it to the beam on the rack and then applying pressure with a bottle jack in the right place to move the end of the axle where you need it to be. It's a long way from rocket science but one has to know what the heck he is doing so as not to screw it up. Again, don't worry about it until the truck is all together and derivable. Outside of sending it to Sid to be checked and corrected there really isn't much one can do with it beforehand. Some vendors sell an inexpensive caster/camber gauge on Ebay that might help in the preliminary setup and checkup on any build and for 15 bucks they aren't that bad. I haven't compared the one I bought against my SnaoOn Caster/camber gauge yet but it looks like a viable thing to get close with . https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...gauge&_sacat=0
__________________
Founding member of the too many projects, too little time and money club. My ongoing truck projects: 48 Chev 3100 that will run a 292 Six. 71 GMC 2500 that is getting a Cad 500 transplant. 77 C 30 dualie, 454, 4 speed with a 10 foot flatbed and hoist. It does the heavy work and hauls the projects around. |
02-09-2018, 08:31 AM | #21 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lakes Region NH
Posts: 3,200
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
02-09-2018, 10:46 AM | #22 | |
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Boise, Idaho
Posts: 6,003
|
Re: Camber, caster, toe-in, toe-out ???
Quote:
Brian
__________________
1948 Chevy pickup Chopped, Sectioned, 1953 Corvette 235 powered. Once was even 401 Buick mid engined with the carburetor right between the seats! Bought with paper route money in 1973 when I was 15. "Fan of most anything that moves human beings" |
|
Bookmarks |
|
|