brake help

[canonball]

I recently purchased a '66 lwb C20 fleetside. Everything runs pretty good, i've changed the coolant, oil, oil filter and bought new spark plugs and wires and an air filter that are gonna go in soon. the biggest issue right now are the brakes.

the story: When I first got the truck there was a tiny bit of stopping power in the brakes. There was fluid in the resiviour and the pedal wouldn't go to the floor, there was a lot of resistance and it did very little to stop the truck. I drove it in some light rain and wet roads one day and since then when I push the brake pedal it goes straight to the floor with no resistance and no stopping. After checking the brake resiviour again I found no fluid in there, so I refilled it and the brake pedal still has no resistance and goes all the way in.

I've got a mechanic friend that is going to take a look at the brakes for me after I disassemble them for him. I just wondered if anyone had any theories about what's causing the brakes to fail and any suggestions/tips for taking the brakes apart. I'm not looking to do a disc brake swap at the moment, money is tight right now. Besides the brakes and a lot of play in the steering rack this truck is road ready and my only transportation so I need to get it on the road. Thanks!

[markeb01]

Welcome to the forum. Not knowing the history of the truck, it sounds likely it may have sat for an extended period of time and corrosion played havoc with one or more of the wheel cylinders, and/or the master cylinder. Once it was put back in service, the motion of the cylinders over the rough internal surfaces caused them to start leaking and lose fluid. It probably just needs a standard brake overhaul, which would include rebuilding or replacing the cylinders, shoes, and turning the drums. While it's apart make sure to repack the front wheel bearings and replace the front inner grease seals.

[61_FL_Apache]

Check for fluid leaking inside all 4 wheels and master cylinder. You may want to rebuild or replace the master just to get it done. You may also have some rubber lines going bad too. They will colapse internally and wont let fluid pass thru. Inspect all metal lines from front to back.

You dont want to mess with brakes. Be very careful and through<sp> in your inspection.

Hope that helps.

[canonball]

thanks for replying so quick guys! this sounds similar to what my friend was saying, I definitely want to make sure the brakes are perfectly sound and I know my friend would too. I rolled under the truck a few days ago and checked out the brake lines and it I couldn't spot any leaks but once we get the truck on jack stands and start disassembling the brake system we'll be sure to double-check everything.

[61_FL_Apache]

Post some pictures if you run across something your not sure about.

[canonball]

got the truck in the air and wheels off, now i have to disassemble the brakes and get them to my friend so we can take them apart and see what its gonna take to get them working properly again.

[blackedoutharley]

There really isn't anything to "take to your friend"... All the replacement work is done at the truck.

[irish1966]

Steps I would do:
1. Put her up on jack stands
2. Remove all of the wheels and with fluid in the res, have a friend pump the brakes, while u look over every inch of the brake lines. Especially where the line may rub against the frame or anything else for that matter.
3. If nothing visible then check the splitter valve at the cross-member to make sure it's not leaking (this won't be a visible leak as it will prob pool on the lip of the cross member)
4. remove all of the drums and again look for signs of fluid leaking
I'm pretty sure you will find it if you systematically look over the lines starting from the res back.

I had a shock remounted on mine and it rubbed a hole in the flex brakeline and we were very lucky to find it before someone was hurt (OL_SKOOL found it the hard way at a stop sign at the end of the street)

[ChevySixty6]

I guess you could take the wheel bearing nut off, then disconnect the rubber
hose and pull the whole backing plate off with the drum and shoes. Then take that to your friend and replace parts on the bench.

That's the route i'm going to have to go, 'cause i can't get that @%&#ing
drum off, even after backing off the shoes, spraying with penetrating oil, heating the drum, pulling on it, banging on it, and throwing stuff at it.

[canonball]

I'm impressed with how fast people are to reply on this forum, I really appreciate it.

yeah I just did a little research after posting that last post and realized that it would be easier to buy him dinner (pizza) to get him over here to help me out. I can kinda fumble my way around mechanic work but I don't want to take any chances with the brakes. He IS a mechanic, as well as one of my best friends, so I know he'll make sure it's done right.

[blackedoutharley]

In the past I have found that it is just better in the end to replace everything... shoes, wheel cylinders & hardware its (if financially able).

It eliminates the potential issues with using old stuff and adds a bit of security knowing that everything is new.

Don't forget to make sure the contact points on the backing plates are smooth (where the shoes ride). Most of these old trucks will have grooves from years of use and the shoes hang up causing erratic braking.

[geezer#99]

Originally Posted by ChevySixty6

I guess you could take the wheel bearing nut off, then disconnect the rubber
hose and pull the whole backing plate off with the drum and shoes. Then take that to your friend and replace parts on the bench.

That's the route i'm going to have to go, 'cause i can't get that @%&#ing
drum off, even after backing off the shoes, spraying with penetrating oil, heating the drum, pulling on it, banging on it, and throwing stuff at it.

On the front the drum is riveted to the hub. 3 rivets. Between the studs. That's why they won't come off!!!!

[ChevySixty6]

Originally Posted by geezer#99

On the front the drum is riveted to the hub. 3 rivets. Between the studs. That's why they won't come off!!!!

Well i learned something new then. That would make is hard to get them off. I must've read right by that in the manual. I've done brake jobs before on other makes, and never came across this. What would be the purpose, since brakes are going to have to be replaced at some time. Guess it's angle grinder time. When i get home i'm going to re-read that part of the manual again. {Let me guess, chevy also tack welded the nut that holds the hub on. Wouldn't want that to come off either.} sarcasm font

[aerotruk63]

In the old days they would turn the drums with the hub, therefore you would not need to remove the drums till they were oversized. They also used to balance the tires and rims on the truck, apparently to balance the whole system instead of just the wheel and tire. Had this done to a 62 K10 I used to have with 39" tires, man you would think the truck was going to tear itself apart till they got the assembly balanced.

[canonball]

Ok this is what I'm starting with, the first photo is the front and the second is the rear, there's a couple of screws on the fronts (one near the top-right and the other near the bottom-left). Do these need to come out to get the drum off? and for the rears do I just bang them with a hammer til they come loose?


p.s. photos are flipped on their side for some reason. just flip your moniter on its side.

[blackedoutharley]

On the rear I believe you're going to find that removing the axles (8 bolts in the center) is required to get the drum off. Check those bearings out at the same time and replace as needed.

For the front I would pull the dust cap and remove the hub and drum together. That way you're forced to inspect the bearings and replace as needed or at the least, repack them and install new seals.
Once you have the drum/hub off the truck it is much easier to separate them while on a bench.

While you have it all apart it would be a good time to replace the wheel studs as well.... they do get weak with age you know.

If you have the funds, why not replace the shocks (that look original) while you're in there?

[Captainfab]

Yes on the front, if you remove those screws the drums will come off. but as blackedoutharley said, it would be a good idea to re-pack the front wheel bearings, and install new seals. In the rear, you will have to remove the axles and then the hub and drums as a unit. Be forewarned, if those rear drums are not turnable/useable, new ones will be expensive to replace. I've seen them on Classic Parts' website for $110.00 each.

[canonball]

Finally got around to inspecting the brakes. My friend helped me get the passenger front and rears pulled apart and we inspected everything. The fronts actually aren't in that bad of shape. The wheel cylinder is shot, the wheel bearings need to be replaced, the shoes are in pretty good good shape and the drums are decent as well, my friend is going to re-surface them and we'll see how they clean up and check for warping. The rear is pretty bad, wheel cylinder is bad (go figure), shoes are worn almost completely down, the drums show signs of metal to metal and are going to have to be replaced. Brake lines and hoses are pretty dry-rotted and the master cylinder could probably be rebuilt but I'm planning on replacing it anyway. We also checked some of the steering components, tie rod ends are going to have to be replaced as well as a couple of other components. I'm going to take apart the drivers side brakes and check all those components. I've got a list of parts and in between work days I'll try and get all this stuff worked out once I order all these parts and get them all in. I'll update here with progress... or for more help.

Oh the photos are from the passenger rear. you can see the shoes are worn almost completely away and the wheel cylinder is shot, lots of corrosion and leakage from the boots and corrosion on the hardware.

[canonball]

I'm planning on getting some parts ordered this week and have been weighing different options lately. I've been looking into wheels as well because mine are for tubed tired I guess? I don't want to have to mess with tubed tires, and there doesn't seem to be many options for 8 lug wheels unless your wallet is a heavyweight (mine isn't). So I'm now looking into what is needed for a 6 lug conversion as well as possibly swapping out the front drums with disc brakes. This was not my original intention but I'm going to be down there replacing and fixing stuff anyway so I may as well spend the extra time saving up a little more money and doing it all together. I should be able to get the disc brakes from a donor vehicle like a late model chevy (mid - 70s) right? and as far as the 6 lug conversion I'll need new hubs for the rear, would a later model C20 work? I'm just thinking about the axel situation on my C20 in that the wheel and hub float over the axel (you have to take the axel out in oder to take the hub/drum off). I don't remember if the C10s are like that, or other later model chevys? Oh, in case you haven't noticed I'm a little new to this stuff!

Anyway, I'm going to see what I can find around the forum which I probably should have done in the first place but this is already all written out so, yeah.

[rideblue00]

I am considering Wheel Vintiques "8 Lug O.E." They are 16" with backspacing how you want it. But stock hubcaps dont work with them. These wheels they have are for 70's trucks. They will fit though. I called them the other day and they are $95.00 each. I am going to see if i can find some junkyard wheels for mine.

[canonball]

Yeah I read about those, $400 on wheels? I'd rather not.
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[astrochimp]

I think the lowest cost swap would be to find a 73-80's 1/2t truck cheap.
It will be 5 lug (don't think there is a cheap 6 lug swap) If you can buy a complete truck you will have all the little stuff that adds up. Front cross member will swap, and for the rear you would need to buy a 'leaf to coil mount kit' and weld it to the new axle.

David

[raycow]

[QUOTE=canonball;4311309]as far as the 6 lug conversion I'll need new hubs for the rear, would a later model C20 work? I'm just thinking about the axel situation on my C20 in that the wheel and hub float over the axel (you have to take the axel out in oder to take the hub/drum off). I don't remember if the C10s are like that, or other later model chevys?QUOTE]

You will have to replace the rear axle with one from a C10. The C20 rears are full floating and there are no 6 lug hubs that fit them. This isn't as bad as it sounds because the C10 rear will give you highway-friendlier gearing.

As for the fronts, you can do a C10 disc swap from the control arm shafts out. You shouldn't have to swap the crossmember unless you want to. You can get aftermarket 6 lug rotors that are a bolt-on replacement for the 5 lug.

Ray

[blackedoutharley]

In looking at online parts houses you can rebuild the entire brake system for about $600 (parts only, you provide the labor) and be done with it.
I checked and the price includes all new parts front & rear:
Drums
Shoes
Hardware kits & new adjusters
wheel cylinders
master cylinder
hoses
grease seals

It is not like the cost of a set of spark plugs but in the end it will be much safer.

[canonball]

Dude thanks so much! I've looked into all the parts for the stock brakes and thats actually when I started thinking that I may as well look into doing the disc brake swap in the front and converting it to 5 or 6 lug in the process. I've been doing some research and it looks like I would be spending about the same or possibly a little more and I would have an updated and more reliable brake system. I've been looking around my area for a some possible donor trucks. I actually found an '86 Chevy long bed for $500. I'm gonna try and give them a call after the holiday and get a little more info.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!