Another header fitment question, but a little different I swear!

[fryer1979]

I am getting to the point where I will soon be ready to start collecting parts for my V8 swap. I really want to put my Olds 350 "Rocket" engine into my pickup, and at the same time keep my original 4 speed transmission. I really want to run long tube headers (have run long tubes on lowered cars for years, don't care about clearance), and had planned on using a set for a 68-72 Olds A-body (Cutlass) to work on that olds engine. From all I could see, and the measurements I can take (have access to a '68 Cutlass, no headers though), the headers would fit fine with the frame, cab, and chassis. My question is this: looking at the clutch linkage, it appears that the "z-bar" may be in the path of the header tubes. I have read elsewhere that longtube headers (SBC applications for these trucks) normally clear the "z-bar" just fine, does anyone here know if my A-body Olds headers would clear as well? My engine came with a Olds bell-housing pattern TH-350 that I can rebuild if I have to, but I would really like to keep the 4-speed, and it would be nice to have a little more info before I go chasing parts. Thanks guys.

[blackedoutharley]

I think you're chasing a ghost at the very least. As you know, the Olds motor has a different bell housing bolt pattern; beyond that I think that finding a clutch kit to work may be an issue.
As far as headers, I think that A body specific ones will fit but as you said the clutch linkage will be a huge problem.
I have an Olds powered car (wife's '77 Firebird Formula) and I can tell you Olds parts can get pricey and I can see the cost of this swap (and the headaches) growing to become more than just putting a Small Block in it...

P.S. The Port of Subs in your town was quite good when I was through there last week, LOL!

[protrash64]

You could go with a hydraulic clutch and avoid the headers, possibly?

[Captainfab]

I agree! This would be the easiest solution to retaining the SM420 4 speed with your Olds engine. Even if the clutch bellcrank (Z-bar) cleared the Olds headers, I doubt the Olds engine will have the ballstud boss in the correct location. Novak adapters makes a clutch slave cylinder and mounting bracket that will work for this. And I could set you up with the kit to put a power booster and clutch master cylinder on the firewall.

A BOP to Chevy bellhousing adapter would probably be the easiest in this situation. If the bellhousing wasn't the rear mount in these trucks, you could just use a BOP bellhousing.

Originally Posted by protrash64

You could go with a hydraulic clutch and avoid the headers, possibly?

[fryer1979]

Near as what I can tell from my reading and conversing with others, the adaptation of the SM420 to the Olds engine is quite simple. All I need to do is locate an Olds (BOP pattern) bell housing, and it all should work. I'm just getting to the point where I want to start getting this all together, and "should work" needs to be a "will work" for me. This engine came out of a 1980 Chevy C10 (my engine is a 1970 Olds 350), and came with the Olds pattern TH350. I'm thinking that I may just build up the auto trans for now (far cheaper than all of the conversions for the SM420), and work on putting something together for the manual later. I'm not really looking to make a monster out of this truck, basic aftermarket parts are more that fine for me, so high cost of parts really isn't an issue. My brother drives a 1968 Olds Cutlass with this same engine, and his parts are only a touch more than the Chevy small block in my Camaro. The biggest issue is most parts stores don't keep parts in stock for these engines, so there is always a day or two of wait for an order.

[fryer1979]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

Novak adapters makes a clutch slave cylinder and mounting bracket that will work for this. And I could set you up with the kit to put a power booster and clutch master cylinder on the firewall.

I have heard about doing the hydraulic conversion, and have given it some thought as well. However, if I go to those kind of lengths I might as well swap into a T-5 transmission from an S-10 or F-body. Do you have a plate/adapter that does both the power brake booster AND the clutch master cylinder? Or is it two seperate adapters?

Also Capt., if you don't mind I wanted to run another question or two by you. All I have left to buy for my power brake conversion is my booster/master cylinder/prop valve set up. I have been looking at the complete unit from CPP, and while I don't like the idea of spending that kind of money, it seems to be a direct fit. And the cost of buying stock parts for the correct year of vehicle to use on your adapter seems to add up to a very similar cost (all things considered). I really like the idea of supporting a fellow forum member, and am not afraid to scrounge junkyards, it seems the total cost is similar between the two....plus I get stuck with that late 80's master cylinder with the crappy plastic fluid resevoir. Am I missing something? Is there fabrication I would have to do with that CPP kit? I can't get an email returned from them, and they take a rediculous ammount of time to ship (almost 4 weeks from so-cal to nor-cal, only about 9 hours away!). Does your adapter allow for a more simple instal? Again, I don't mind digging and have a car club full of guys who like a bit of a custom challenge, I'm just trying to find the better path at this point...... Thanks man.

[Captainfab]

The unit I was referring to is the one that I sell for the '60-'62's with the hydraulic clutch. With 2 additioinal holes, it will bolt to the '63-'66's. And yes it is one unit, the brake booster and the clutch master all together. Check out the link in my sig.

As for buying the complete kit. The brake booster that you purchase from CPP is not what I would call a direct fit. You will have to drill some holes to bolt it up. My booster bracket is a direct fit. No holes to drill as it uses holes already in the firewall. The exception to this, is with the hydraulic clutch conversion. With that you will need to drill 3 holes. One with a holesaw and 2 with a drill bit. As for the plastic reservior master cylinders, the older all cast iron master cylinders will bolt right up to the boosters that my booster brackets are designed for. With my booster bracket, you will have to do a little fabricating/welding to join the booster pushrod with your original master pushrod. If you don't want to use wrecking yard parts on your truck, you can always use those as cores, and get rebuilt or new parts from your local auto parts supplier.

Depending on just what you order, and what my inventory is at the time, you should receive your order from me in 5-7 days.

Originally Posted by fryer1979

I have heard about doing the hydraulic conversion, and have given it some thought as well. However, if I go to those kind of lengths I might as well swap into a T-5 transmission from an S-10 or F-body. Do you have a plate/adapter that does both the power brake booster AND the clutch master cylinder? Or is it two seperate adapters?

Also Capt., if you don't mind I wanted to run another question or two by you. All I have left to buy for my power brake conversion is my booster/master cylinder/prop valve set up. I have been looking at the complete unit from CPP, and while I don't like the idea of spending that kind of money, it seems to be a direct fit. And the cost of buying stock parts for the correct year of vehicle to use on your adapter seems to add up to a very similar cost (all things considered). I really like the idea of supporting a fellow forum member, and am not afraid to scrounge junkyards, it seems the total cost is similar between the two....plus I get stuck with that late 80's master cylinder with the crappy plastic fluid resevoir. Am I missing something? Is there fabrication I would have to do with that CPP kit? I can't get an email returned from them, and they take a rediculous ammount of time to ship (almost 4 weeks from so-cal to nor-cal, only about 9 hours away!). Does your adapter allow for a more simple instal? Again, I don't mind digging and have a car club full of guys who like a bit of a custom challenge, I'm just trying to find the better path at this point...... Thanks man.

[fryer1979]

Cool man, thanks. I think I may just go that route. My phone is running stupid slow right now, so I'll shoot you a message as soon as I can get around my computer. I am totally good with junkyard parts, and don't mind a little fab work here and there. I may just go with the brake booster plate for now, the 6 is still running good and some friends are pushing me hard to build a hot rod 292 for it. I'll talk to ya shortly, thanks again.
Posted via Mobile Device

[samuellg1977]

I put a 350/700R4 in mine and Hedman Long Tubes - The drivers side hedder tapped the A-plate... It was so bad... This was my first engine swap EVER!! I had to hang the Hedders while the engine was STILL DANGLING from the cherry picker and hovering inside the frame ABOVE the mounts!! They would not fit between the motor and the frame with it sitting on the mounts. After i got it in and fired up and noticed the hellacious clatter of steel-on-steel, - I said well, Sam, the engine sits level, runs great, and was a pain to get in here, let's get the torch and a hammer... Ten minutes later - VOILA, no more tapping. Haha - never again... If this motor goes, it goes to the back of the yard on blocks till my BS-O-METER recharges!!!

[fryer1979]

Yeah, headers are almost always a crappy fit. When I put the long tubes on my '79 Z28 we had to loosen the engine mounts and lift the engine a few inches before they would go in. Now that I've removed a bunch of extra junk from the engine bay they come and go nicely. But since I'll be soon adding an off brand big block, fitment will once again be quite the issue on that car. Unfortunately the Olds engine has quite the different design to the heads, so Olds specific headers are a must. With all the vauge fitment issues of this swap, and my own unwillingness to throw cash at a project just to see if something will work or not, I'm beginning to wonder if the Olds engine is worth the effort. I have a small journal 327 I can rebuild for it, and have access to a few 292 long blocks, so I am starting to think of keeping this one Chevy, especially since the Camaro is going to be a big custon job.

[62 Longbed]

If your Olds Motor did not come from a stick car you will have to have the back of the crank machined larger to accept a pilot bearing .. Its not like a Chevy were you can install a pilot bearing at any time , Olds have a difference between Auto Cranks and Stick Cranks .. I believe there is an adapter being made in the aftermarket or you can have the hole opened up with the crank still in the engine , check with your local engine rebuild shop for pricing .. This goes for both big and small olds motors ..

[samuellg1977]

Originally Posted by fryer1979

Yeah, headers are almost always a crappy fit. When I put the long tubes on my '79 Z28 we had to loosen the engine mounts and lift the engine a few inches before they would go in. Now that I've removed a bunch of extra junk from the engine bay they come and go nicely. But since I'll be soon adding an off brand big block, fitment will once again be quite the issue on that car. Unfortunately the Olds engine has quite the different design to the heads, so Olds specific headers are a must. With all the vauge fitment issues of this swap, and my own unwillingness to throw cash at a project just to see if something will work or not, I'm beginning to wonder if the Olds engine is worth the effort. I have a small journal 327 I can rebuild for it, and have access to a few 292 long blocks, so I am starting to think of keeping this one Chevy, especially since the Camaro is going to be a big custon job.

fryer1979, what do you think of solid motor mounts? I keep breaking the rubber out of the standard mounts. They are a TIGHT fit. The rubber only lasts about two months til i hear metal tapping and sure enough, it is the mount AGAIN!! I was thinking of using the solid mounts, but never have before, so just wondering if it is worth the headache to put them in and if they are gonna shake my fillings loose... I am just tired of repairing the standard vibration reducing / absorbing ones i have now. What are your thoughts? Thanks...

Sam

[Rich 5150 69]

Originally Posted by samuellg1977

fryer1979, what do you think of solid motor mounts? I keep breaking the rubber out of the standard mounts. They are a TIGHT fit. The rubber only lasts about two months til i hear metal tapping and sure enough, it is the mount AGAIN!! I was thinking of using the solid mounts, but never have before, so just wondering if it is worth the headache to put them in and if they are gonna shake my fillings loose... I am just tired of repairing the standard vibration reducing / absorbing ones i have now. What are your thoughts? Thanks...

Sam

Put a torgue strap on the left side, either a chain or slotted steel strap from engine to frame, with a quarter inch of movement only, you will not tear anymore up.

[samuellg1977]

Originally Posted by Rich 5150 69

Put a torgue strap on the left side, either a chain or slotted steel strap from engine to frame, with a quarter inch of movement only, you will not tear anymore up.

Thanks, Rich... I had never heard of that before. I just googled it and saw one made with a turn buckle (hook on each end with an adjustment bar in the center). I have some of those in my garage that came off of a concert stage a few years back. I'll try it tomorrow. Oh, BTW - you have got a sweet pickup!!! Diggin the stance a lot!!!

[fryer1979]

Originally Posted by samuellg1977

fryer1979, what do you think of solid motor mounts? I keep breaking the rubber out of the standard mounts. They are a TIGHT fit. The rubber only lasts about two months til i hear metal tapping and sure enough, it is the mount AGAIN!! I was thinking of using the solid mounts, but never have before, so just wondering if it is worth the headache to put them in and if they are gonna shake my fillings loose... I am just tired of repairing the standard vibration reducing / absorbing ones i have now. What are your thoughts? Thanks...

Sam

Sorry I missed this Sam. Personally I would never run solid mounts. Much like Rich suggested I would run a heavy strap or even a chain to limit how far the engine will torque over. Have you tried a set of Energy Suspension mounts? The poly material should old up a lot better. Solid mounts end up making for one heck of a rough ride.....