Steering box or R&P?

[mechanixman]

Hey folks
As I've been working on my steering, I've been running into some fairly serious problems. To start, my box is so close to the column, that I don't think I can normally connect the box to the column. Secondly, the box sits too high and hits the intake manifold. This not only makes it a pain to get to both the dipstick and sparkplugs, but also put the pitman arm out into the movement of the wheel. If I turn too far to the left, the arm will hit the tire.
I could MAYBE make it work, but that would involve making a notch in the frame, and trying to fit the steering box halfway under the manifold, and still tucked in next to the block.
Now I've done so much to front axle, that I would really rather keep it. It's pretty cool! I was racking my brain on a solution when I remembered that someone (I think on this forum) installed a rack and pinion right onto their straight axle.
I tried looking over the interwebs looking for what people's opinions were of these steering set up. And it seemed everyone's opinion was pretty much 50/50. With some people saying DON'T mount the rack to the frame! I know that's already asking for trouble, but I want to know if it's a viable option over the original steering, and what type of rack & pinion setups should I be looking for?

Thanks in advance

[Katrina/10]

I remember seeing some racks mounted to front axles, too, but it was a long time ago. It should be interesting to see what comes up on this. My thoughts are, it could work, but the steering shaft would have to be very flexible, since the rack would be moving up and down when you drive.

[Katrina/10]

Maybe you could try one of those kits that locate the steering box in front of the axle. That would give you a lot more room.

[xaircav]

Nick, When I put the 283 into my '53 one of the priorities was to keep the straight axle and big steering wheel/column. I tried ram horns, block hugger headers and the only exhaust manifolds that would clear the steering box were the 55-56 log style. They are not the greatest for flow and hard to find but they fit. I've seen the frame mounted R&P cradles for Tri 5 cars and others (Flaming River) but none for our trucks yet. Let's keep watching.

[mr48chev]

I don't recognize that steering box and that setup doesn't look like it is going to be satisfactory in the long run.

One thing I have been tossing around in the back of my mind for a long time is putting a car steering box (Chevelle or Impala size and Impala size in this case) on the inside of the frame rail and running a drag link over to the right side steering arm. I've used a Jeep right side tie rod end that has an eye for the end of a drag link before but that would be too small for the one ton. Ford 4x4 trucks used a cross steer setup with an eye in the middle of the right tie rod to connect the drag link to and one of those off an F250 or f350 might be adaptable.

You would have to clear what you have for motormounts but the box would tuck in between the frame rail and the oil pan in front of the outlet on the exhaust manifold and the steering shaft would run up alongside the manifold and exhaust to the column much like a lot of later model rigs have.

It's something to think about.

[mechanixman]

Originally Posted by Katrina/10

My thoughts are, it could work, but the steering shaft would have to be very flexible, since the rack would be moving up and down when you drive.

Yeah I was reading over on the hamb that you need to have specifically a sliding steering shaft, not just a steering column. but I was already figuring on getting something along those lines.

Originally Posted by Katrina/10

Maybe you could try one of those kits that locate the steering box in front of the axle. That would give you a lot more room.

I was considering that, but it seems like it's just as much if not more work to mount one of those, because then you have to cut holes in the inner fenders to clearance the steering shaft, and I thing having the shaft just go straight down would be quite a bit easier.

Originally Posted by xaircav

the only exhaust manifolds that would clear the steering box were the 55-56 log style. They are not the greatest for flow and hard to find but they fit. I've seen the frame mounted R&P cradles for Tri 5 cars and others (Flaming River) but none for our trucks yet. Let's keep watching.

Yeah I was looking at those, and they do indeed seem to be pretty hard to find. I'm not too sure about those frame mounted sets though, It seems like those tie rods would have to compensate for a lot of travel.

Originally Posted by mr48chev

I don't recognize that steering box and that setup doesn't look like it is going to be satisfactory in the long run.

You would have to clear what you have for motormounts but the box would tuck in between the frame rail and the oil pan in front of the outlet on the exhaust manifold and the steering shaft would run up alongside the manifold and exhaust to the column much like a lot of later model rigs have.

It's something to think about.

The box is out of a 1980, c20? I can't remember the size of the truck. Whenever I was first mocking it up, everything seemed to work out fine. it was when I made the mount the problems came seeping in. And I have to agree with you, it would be awful setup if I were to just try to bolt it in right now - Long or short term.
That does sound like a good idea, but I'm really strapped for space. If I were to make something like that work, it'd have to be bolted to the underside of the frame.

[whitedog76]

This kit puts the later model Chevy box on the front of the frame. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/1947-5...Kit,25170.html


CPP has a "Column Saver" kit that will let you keep your steering column. You cut the outer shaft and weld in a bushing. http://www.classicperform.com/Instru.../PDF/CPBCS.pdf

I don't know what your plans are with your front brakes yet, but you may have to modify the steering arm on the kit to work with your disc conversion. The arm uses the top two holes on the spindle.

[mr48chev]

The simple and most economical solution may be to move your C-20 box up in front of the axle. That kit from Speedway would make an easy task of it but you could come up with the pieces to do it yourself with a little hunting and fabricating. You wouldn't have any problem fabricating the tab for one ear of the box to bolt to that they show in the photo. Getting it in the right location might be the interesting part. It may not be the absolute best solution but it would be simple and you most likely have most of the parts and pieces or can fabricate them.

[mechanixman]

Thanks whitedog.
I found that column saver thing about a week after I sold mine, and bought a new one.

I was looking at that cpp kit to maybe see if I could make it work, but I don't it what's there. I.E. a slightly longer pitman arm, stuff like that.

After looking on the hamb some more, I'm leaning towards the vega box. BugI have a (pretty serious) question: How would you mount the drag link?

Mr.48chev, yeah, but that box is still outrageously wide. As much as I would like to use it, I would be cutting out a serious part of my turning radius using that box.

[Russell Ashley]

I used that column saver kit when I added p/s to my 57. It's a nice kit and doesn't require any welding, but is a little expensive at about $70, IIRC.

That p/s kit that mounts the steering box in front of the axle might not limit your turning radius if you are using original style wheels and tires. I have it on my truck and can still turn completely to the axle stops but couldn't use any wider tires than the 235/75/R15s I'm currently using. I definitely don't recommend that kit though.

[mechanixman]

Hey Mr. Ashley
I think that's where I'd have the problem. You see, someone rebuilt this truck professionally 20 or 30 years ago. Stuff along the lines of sanding down to bare metal, using high quality filler here and there, and changing more that I originally thought. For instance, I have ford rims that hold a bigger tire, which is why I don't think it will quite work out.

I found a kit!!!
Pretty damn pricey, but we'll see what happens.
http://www.nolimit.net/products#!/~/...97&id=29062181

Here's an article of them installing it on an AD truck.
http://www.customclassictrucks.com/t...nion_steering/

[Russell Ashley]

http://www.nolimit.net/products#!/~/...97&id=29062181

I think that's far too much to spend and still keep the straight axle. Have you looked at using the front suspension from an 80-90 Chevy three quarter ton truck? From reading other threads here on the forum it seems to be very do-able and would give you a better riding and driving truck. You would have to narrow it some but that's also been covered in other threads.

[whitedog76]

Nick-

The 3600 and larger trucks have tapered tie rod ends, not straight. Just something to think about. You may have to conver to 1/2 ton style steering arms.

[mechanixman]

Originally Posted by Russell Ashley

I think that's far too much to spend and still keep the straight axle. Have you looked at using the front suspension from an 80-90 Chevy three quarter ton truck? From reading other threads here on the forum it seems to be very do-able and would give you a better riding and driving truck. You would have to narrow it some but that's also been covered in other threads.

The reason I don't try to make it an ifs, I think the straight axle is cool, and i want to keep it original-ish (I guess that's a prety big ISH )
not to mention it'll be a lot faster and easier to get it running with the straight axle as opposed to the ifs. My goal is still to have it driving well by the beginning of June for Power Tour.
Oh and i completely agree with you that that's an outrageous price, which is why I'm buying a rack and pinon from an LT1 camaro today for $40.

Originally Posted by whitedog76

Nick-

The 3600 and larger trucks have tapered tie rod ends, not straight. Just something to think about. You may have to conver to 1/2 ton style steering arms.

Awww jeez... thanks for the heads up. I just can't wait..

[mechanixman]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

One thing I have been tossing around in the back of my mind for a long time is putting a car steering box (Chevelle or Impala size and Impala size in this case) on the inside of the frame rail and running a drag link over to the right side steering arm.
It's something to think about.

Mr.48chevy, have you done any other serious research for the cross steer setup? I was seriously considering it, but I was having trouble finding a place for the gearbox. I could mount it behind the motor mount, but I'd need those manifolds that have the collector towards the back.
If this rack and pinion thing doesn't work out, I'm going to shoot for that.
Well here is the rack and pinion I bought, it's a power unit from a 4th gen camaro.
I think this will work out pretty well! My only serious problem is shortening the tie rods. But this might give me the opportunity to adapt the original tie rod ends onto the new steering set up.
What do you guys think?

[47 Fasttoys]

Not sure where you want to go with this...If your thinking of mounting the rack to the frame or a cradle mount I don't think that will work. The issue will be every time the front end travels up or down you will change your toe-in or toe-out. As far as racks are concerned that is the main reason you only see them on independent suspension. If you tie the rack to only 1 side and use the drag link at the rear you still have the same issue. If you tie the rack to the axle you will have the column issue to deal with . I wish you the best of luck with this. but I think in the long run if you are going to run a solid axle you are stuck with a gearbox of some type. Either way this should be interesting keep us up to date. Isn't the Camaro a front steer unit? If you use that behind your axle I think when you turn to the left your truck is gonna turn to the right (just think of the fun you could have with that)
Rob

[mechanixman]

The goal is to follow along the lines of the kit posted earlier in this thread.
Basically mounting the rack setup to the axle, and running the telescoping steering shaft.
That way I don't need to worry about bump steer at all.
As for the steering shaft, that kit uses a flaming river steering unit. I looked on their website and found this.
https://www.flamingriver.com/index.p...ts/c0008/s0001

The main criticism I have found for mounting it to the axle, is the steering shaft binding up, and then not sliding to compensate for the bumps, and something worse could happen. But Because I running a power steering unit, I won't have to worry about the same amount of torque on the shaft as opposed to the manual unit. Besides, If I make sure to maintain it properly, I won't really need to worry about it.

[Russell Ashley]

It seems that mounting the rack solidly to the frame would cause the alignment to shift when the wheels move up and down, but actually most all newer small cars have the rack solidly mounted. I'm rebuilding the front end of my PT Cruiser today, and noticed that it's that way. The rack is mounted to the frame and obviously the steering arms that the rack attaches to move up and down as the suspension moves. I don't get unusual tire wear with this car so it makes me question if a solidly mounted rack would actually cause problems. Some GM compacts are like this also.
I have a Scott's bolt in front end ordered and the rack is solidly mounted with it so there must be a way to make it work. It just doesn't seem like a good idea to have the steering shaft moving up and down.

[mechanixman]

Originally Posted by Russell Ashley

most all newer small cars have the rack solidly mounted. I'm rebuilding the front end of my PT Cruiser today, and noticed that it's that way. The rack is mounted to the frame and obviously the steering arms that the rack attaches to move up and down as the suspension moves. I don't get unusual tire wear with this car so it makes me question if a solidly mounted rack would actually cause problems. Some GM compacts are like this also.
I have a Scott's bolt in front end ordered and the rack is solidly mounted with it so there must be a way to make it work.

Huh. That is something to think about. But I believe the chief difference is having the ifs.

Originally Posted by Russell Ashley

It just doesn't seem like a good idea to have the steering shaft moving up and down.

If you don't mind me asking, why not? We have slip joints on our drive shafts.
Now albeit they are about twice as big, but they handle MUCH more torque and stresses of spinning at thousands of rpm. Where as there will be almost no torque on this steering shaft due to power steering, and it will never make more than 3 revolutions in either direction.

[Russell Ashley]

I agree that having IFS is the difference. After looking at my PT Cruiser all day and also looking at the pic of the Scott's front end that I ordered I think it works because the rack is mounted near the level of the lower control arm pivots and the steering link is about the same length as the control arm.
As for mounting the rack directly to the axle, the axle moves both horizontally and vertically. If you are traveling at a high rate of speed and hit a sizeable pothole the axle moves in both directions pretty violently. This setup might be OK but it just doesn't seem like a good idea to me to have the steering shaft moving and telescoping while you are driving. I'm sure it's been done but I wouldn't do it.

[mechanixman]

Well thank you for the advice Mr. Ashley, I'll approach this set up "with a grain of salt" so to speak.

Well i got the axle out from under the truck today. I'm looking forward to getting this all working. One thing I think is a big bonus over this camaro rack as opposed to the mustang 2 (I think?) they use in that $750 kit, is that the camaro rack has these really nice tabs to make mounting it easier. Where the kit just has two rings that clamp down on the rack assembly, I can make a clamp/platform with two studs that stick up.

So I measured the tie rod from center to center on the tie rod ends, it measured 48" flat. I thought that seemed right that they would make it an even number, but my tie rod looks to have a bit of a bend in it. Does this measurement sound right to you guys?

Thanks,

[hsdropout]

I have the no limit rack & pinion kit on my straight axle. Put the hoses on today. Need to fill the pump up, bleed it check for leaks etc. I will let you know how it works. It is a very clean looking install. I have no concern with the slip shaft as others here do but I am concerned with the amount of vibration that the unit itself will endure. I am hoping the hard piping and fittings don't crack and leak after some road time. I think it is cool and will work fine but I am considering it experimental for the time being.

[mechanixman]

Ugh.
You know guys, I hate to bounce back and forth like this, creating a dead and thread for the rack and pinion, but I want to explore one more option before I spend a ton of money on the rack and pinion set up.
I have a few concerns with the telescoping steering rod. The main one being that I think 3 inches is barely enough travel in one direction, let alone two. What i mean by that is, when the springs compress, I believe the 3 inches will compensate for that. But what about when the springs go the other direction? I'm thinking pothole (okay I guess more like a crater) or how I tend to jack up the front of the truck and keep the frame-not the axle on jack stands. There won't be any travel in the steering shaft, and something will give out. I'm thinking the knuckle between the shaft and the rack. Not something I want to deal with.

Now while I was looking at the frame tonight, I think I found a solution. And I want to know what you guys think. What I'm thinking is mounting the vega steering box in front of the motor mounts. So the pivot for the pitman arm will be right around where the crank shaft pulley is. Then I'll flip the steering arms around to the tie rod is in front of the axle, and the pit man arm will drag link will attach where the the original one did, which is now on the passenger's side.

[mr48chev]

Outside of premature wear I don't think that the slip and slide steering shaft is going to be a big issue. You will have to figure out how to keep it greased and grease it quite often. Pretty much like a pto shaft on a mower deck on the back of a tractor.

Is it my eyes or do you have that engine sitting far lower than most guys set their engines in their trucks? I'm thinking the centerline of the crank looks to be several inches lower than the centerline of the stock crank. Add to that, I have never seen an AD truck including GMC's with the front crossmeber notched to clear the pulley like that.

[mechanixman]

Alright. Well thank you for the vote of confidence.
In relation to the frame, my engine does sit quite a bit lower than everybody else's. Reasons behind it were lower center of gravity, no need to even touch the firewall when putting in the trans, and lastly added frustration when figuring out the steering.
Ha ha I actually notched the cross member myself. It was a 100% chevy frame. When all is said and done, I know everything will clear, I'm going to rebuild that section missing so it clears the harmonic balancer.
Funny thing is, when i look at where my distributor and air cleaner sits in relation to the cab, it seems to be about the same height.

It's hard to tell, but if it gives you an idea, the fuel pump pretty much sits inside the frame.