Haunted Powerglide?

[thelawdoc]

Hello to the Forum. This is my first post after some months of reading through the informative threads here. Alas, I come hat in hand, having recently traded my Harley for a '65-'66 Chevy C10 (Fleetside 250 I6 with 2 speed, automatic, aluminum Powerglide) which is now presenting an issue that has me and my mechanic scratching our heads.

Briefly, here are the facts: Although the truck (and transmission) was running perfectly, I recently noticed drops of transmission fluid from the front and rear seals leaking. I decided it was time for a rebuild. I gave the truck to a shop that has a stellar reputation for working on these trucks and they gave the truck back to me one week later running even better than it had before.

This past Saturday I set out from Brooklyn, New York on my way to vacation in Maine -a 12 hour drive. I was on the interstate about four hours, cruising along at 65 mph, sometimes 70, feeling as good as good can be, and the truck was sounding as happy as I was. Then I stopped to pay a toll. When I accelerated to leave the toll booth, all I got was a revving of the engine. She would not go forward. I tried reverse and she would not reverse, offering the same revving as I got trying to go forward. I tried for a few minutes more, but it was clear that she was going nowhere. A truck gave me a push for a short distance to get me off of the turnpike and into a nearby lot. While I waited for a tow truck, I gave another try and the transmission engaged perfectly, but she would only move about 100 feet and then just rev. In the couple hours that I waited for my tow, I started her up several times and each time the transmission would engage -but only for some several dozen feet of travel forward or backward. Then she would just rev. At no time were there any noises or other clues as to what could be bothering her. Of course I checked the fluid -it was fine. The fluid was perfectly clean and without any burn odor and exactly where it should have been on the stick. I went under the truck and saw that the linkage was not damaged. All lines and hoses appeared just fine to my eye. She was flat-bedded the 200 miles back to my mechanic's shop in Brooklyn where she sat until Monday morning. Monday morning she acted the same for my mechanic as she did for me two days previously.

Around 5pm my mechanic calls me and says I can take my truck. I queried him as to what caused this catastrophic failure of the transmission that he had just rebuilt. He said he honestly did not know. He told me that he dropped the tranny and spent most of the day trying to find something. He found nothing. He says he "hit the books" and consulted with others, but no one had any ideas. He put the tranny back together and into the truck with the intention of sending the truck to another shop. But he started her up and put her into gear, she engaged and drove perfectly! Forward and reverse. He then went out driving and drove for nearly an hour, at all speeds. She performed beautifully. I then took the truck and went driving for about an hour. Everything perfect. Today, I drove her again for an hour. Still perfect.

So I present to this forum the above information in the hope that someone here might be able to tell me what they think the "problem" was. The only idea that I can come up with stems from my mechanic mentioning that he cleaned the valve (pressure valve?). But he says the valve was fine and he cleaned it only as a matter of procedure and did not believe that the valve would have caused the condition that presented itself to us. He insists that he did nothing in the way of any repair. He is scratching his head and I am now too paranoid to get back on the road with the truck for a 12 hour drive up to Maine where my family awaits me. Flatbedding is not cheap, and my nerves get frazzled when I am stranded hundreds of miles from home.

I hope this post is not a ramble. My mechanic is telling me to drive the truck an hour or so each day for a couple more days and, if all remains well, to hit the road. But I am nervous. Unless this forum opines that I go, I am not going. I would appreciate any help that anyone here can offer. Thank you. Alden

[PGSigns]

Could have been a valve body issue. We have used powerglides for years in drag racing and have put a ton of power in front of them. Good little trannys. In a stock power glide there are a couple of check balls that can cause problems, there is a tube that goes over to the servo that can come out and there is the pressure regulator valve in the valve body. A small piece of trash or a burr on any of the surfaces can cause an issue. What he did to clean and check it is all that can be done and I would drive the piss out of it around town to get your confidence back and head up the road.
Jimmy

[Jurassic-1]

Years ago I had a similar experience. I had a 1965 Impala SS 396 with a powerglide. I had it rebuilt and it was great I had it running for a couple of days and was out for a drive. I approached a red light and stopped. The light changed and I accelerated and the engine revved and the car barely rolled forward. I kept revving the engine up and down and as it rolled a bit faster it shifted into 2nd and off it went. I pulled it back out and brought it back to the shop , He took it apart and found the band was cracked and was no longer tight. He showed me the band and also showed me the one that came out during the rebuild.The old school ones were probably asbestos impregnated with metal flakes. He told me the used to be better because the flakes kept the drums clean and running smooth as the new ones are organic. I opted to use the old one. It looked new even with 100 plus thousand miles on it. it ran perfect for years until I sold the car. It may be worth checking. It could be overlooked if not closely inspected.Good Luck

[thelawdoc]

Jurassic-1, Thank you for responding. I would sure hope that my mechanic has good eyesight. As a weekend hobby machinist, I can appreciate the need to check parts under good lighting and magnification. And it always irks me that too often, new, modern parts do not perform as good or better than old ones. Right now, what with the band(s) closed up inside the tranny, I will have to leave it to God's will. But if the PG acts up again, I plan to insist on spending the day together with the mechanic so that I can personally examine every piece of the tranny. He also promised me that if I get stuck, he will send a truck to get me no matter how far I got. -Alden

[Jurassic-1]

Well lets hope it was just a piece of crap or stuck check ball. Usually the Powerglide is a very reliable Trans. He may have solved the problem. Give her a series of local rundown cruises then if all is good I think you will be fine.

[thelawdoc]

Yep. She's haunted. This morning I took her out as part of the test driving regimen that the mechanic requested of me. She ran nicely for about 3 miles. At that point, as I was approaching a red light, I heard a slight slipping. A few seconds later, while decelerating for the light, the tranny lost engagement and all I could muster was revving of the engine. I coasted to the side and turned off the engine. I called my mechanic to come and get me and then I tried starting her up again to see whether she would move. She did. About 500 feet, and then -when I had to decelerate for traffic, the tranny went out again. I coasted to the side, turned off the engine, waited a few minutes, restarted her, and she went another 500 feet or so when I again had to decelerate for a stop sign and lost transmission. I did this the whole way to the shop -a couple miles. The shop's big kahuna said he is going to bring in a specialist, which will entail a few days but that I should have the truck back by the end of the week. As politely as I could, I requested that the truck not be given back to me without a good test drive and an explanation as to exactly what was wrong. I then walked home in today's 90 degree heat, where the mailman was just delivering my Powerglide Transmissions Handbook. Maybe I should go and drop off the book at the shop?

Any comments from the forum will be appreciated.

[thelawdoc]

Jimmy, Thank you. Your response makes me feel better. That pressure valve seems to be a pretty important little item. My inclination would be to keep a new one on hand and at the ready, but I have not been able to find any at the usual parts sites online. And I understand that the pressure valve is inside the tranny -so I would not be able to swap one out on the road. My mechanic also mentioned that he cleaned the 'modulator/regulator'. Isn't that an item that I should be able to find new and be able to swap out at the side of the road?

Today I will drive her again. I should also receive today a Powerglide Transmission Handbook. After what happened to me this past Saturday, I think I need to familiarize myself a bit with this celebrated tranny. I am also praying that none of those little checkballs you mentioned ran away unnoticed when the rebuild was done. Do you think my story suggests that perhaps, indeed, a check ball is missing?

Thank you, Jimmy. Your attention is much appreciated. -Alden

[PGSigns]

Well trany's are done by trany shops. A powerglide is as simple as an automatic gets. Sounds like it is loosing low and that is handled by the band an a servo. There is a process for setting them with a torque wrench and then backing the bolt off. That could be an issue. Also the bore in the case needs checked for the servo to make sure its not worn and leaking by the pressure. And then there is the tube I talked about in the last post. All of these things can cause an issue with low gear. I have seen new bands break but you almost never get anywhere when they do.
Jimmy

[thelawdoc]

Jimmy, your comment that 'transmissions are done by transmission shops' is exactly what a voice in my head is beginning to tell me. I, myself, know that the Powerglide is not considered a difficult tranny to work on. I brought it to this particular shop because they have a reputation for competency around a wide area for work on classic/vintage vehicles. It is a large shop. Well, I guess I made a mistake. But they have been paid and now I need them to do their rebuild right. I spent $1000 on the rebuild, I burned $150 in gas on my way to Maine when I got stranded, spent another $600 on the flatbedding home, and I sit here now studying Powerglide transmissions while the shop tears down my tranny for the third time. I don't have the funds right now to take the truck away from them and flatbed it to say, Aamco. I am becoming irritated. I am going over there in an hour or so with suggestions I have received, along with a Powerglide Handbook, and I am going to insist they test this tranny "by the book." I am especially keen on a close exam of the pressure valve and I want to see a test done on that pressure valve with the back wheels up in the air, running. It is unacceptable to me that they give me back the truck, even if it "works", without telling me exactly what was wrong. Been there, done that. -Alden

[Jurassic-1]

This is really a mystery. Powerglides are fairly simple as transmissions go. It is too bad they can not figure it out. I have an old school trans guy I have ised 30+ years who rebuilds these RWD more vintage trannys in his sleep. He does not even do front wheel drive work.He usually gets around $400 for powerglide, Turbo 350,and 400 Turbos + R+R labor and a shift kit is installed as standard if you want it. I had my 700R4 done for $650. I hope the 3rd time is a charm for you. As PGsigns indicates Band adjustment and servos are adjustable. Possibly there is an issue with the band getting hung up at times.

[PGSigns]

Very few times does the pressure valve give problems. You can put w gage on it and see what it is doing. That may work fine on the lift and you could still have the issue later. Sounds like your issues happen after the tranny is warmed up and after you have run down the road a good bit at speed. That is the test I would run on it when done. Some big shops have good trans guys that that is all they do. If you end up taking it to some one else (trans or truck) look for a shop that does drag race trany's. They will be the local powerglide experts.
Jimmy

[thelawdoc]

Jimmy, Jurassic-1, I have been trying in the last few days to find a shop here in Brooklyn, New York that does Powerglides, drag or otherwise, but have not found one yet. Perhaps the market in NYC is not such that one might find advertising or internet listings specific to Powerglides. Regrettably, at this point, even if the shop gives me back the truck working perfectly, and even if they tell me some particular issue that they found, I doubt that I am going to be able to be comfortable and confident driving her. Right now, my heart for the truck is beginning to whither. My family is up in Maine waiting for me and I am spending my vacation time here in Brooklyn researching Powerglides. Perhaps the smart thing for me to do is to make this the final chance for my shop to make the rebuild good, and then -if it fails, demand my money returned and give the truck to another shop. For all the money I have spent with this shop and towing I could have bought a new, crate tranny! No? Perhaps someone from this forum knows of a Powerglide shop in Brooklyn. -Alden

[thelawdoc]

UPDATE: So about an hour ago the shop called and asked me to come take the truck and drive her some. They had taken the Powerglide out, rechecked everything, performed all of the tests by the book, and found nothing -again. And on a short test drive by them, the issue did not show itself. Agreeing with me, they said they are not giving me the truck back yet or declaring it repaired. They just needed me to give them a hand by spending an hour of my time test driving her and then holding her for the weekend so that she not sit in their lot. They want her back Monday morning. I was fine with that. I drove her about 40 minutes. She performed beautifully. I will drive her more over the weekend.

I don't know whether I want the problem to reappear (and then find the cause) or not reappear (and not know the cause or when it might reappear). I also do not know exactly why they want her back on Monday even if the problem does not show up. But they seem to have a plan, and in light of my general trust in these guys, I will do exactly what they say. However, I do intend on sticking to my decision that, if they give me the truck back and tell me she is fixed and it turn out that she is not, I will ask for return of my money so that I can go to another shop. It just seems to me that three opportunities to repair a Powerglide should result in either a good repair or an admission that they cannot do it. -Alden

[Sharps40]

I think ya should count yerself lucky. Ya have a shop willing and able to try working on a 35+ year old obsolete transmission.

They've worked on it till all the initial profit is gone and its out of their pocket, and all in the name of good customer relations.

If they can't fix it, demandin yer money back ain't going to happen, it'll for sure gaurentee that their efforts to correct the issue will grind to a halt. As long as they are workin on it, don't piss in their coffee. You and they have moved well beyond what most shops would give you these days by way of follow up even on a newer unit.

Might want to consider your investment well spent, lesson learned (old stuff is worn out before ya rebuild it and it'll never be Like New, its old stuff) and maybe even consider using this fine mecanic shop (as you have already seen demonstrated by them on the old PG trans) to help ya find a more reliable more modern transmission thereby gaining the reliability and confidence you require for a long journey.

[thelawdoc]

Sharps40, thank you for responding. I certainly sympathize with any craftsman putting in his time and effort and not making any profit. Clearly, if these guys fix my Powerglide, they are deserving of a bonus or tip. Having run a few types of businesses in my time, I know what it is to perform an agreement. When I picked up the truck for the first time, I tipped the mechanic. When I picked it up for the second time I intended to come right back with a tip again and a case of beer. Having said that, let's remember the fact pattern here: two weeks ago they agreed to rebuild my tranny. In my mind, to rebuild a tranny is to make it good for another few tens of thousands of miles. Indeed, the shop warrants their work. If you read my posts, it is plain that we are not talking about any 'follow-up'. Last Saturday, when I left Brooklyn for Maine, having just received the truck back on Thursday, the tranny died after just 4 or 5 hours. They gave me the truck back Monday evening and on Tuesday morning the tranny quit again within 20 minutes. The shop has never even suggested to me that "I am lucky" about anything. To the contrary, from the beginning, they have promised to give me a tranny that should be good for many tens of thousands of miles more. And, furthermore, when I picked up the truck a couple hours ago to test drive her over the weekend, the owner assured me that this tranny will be perfected "no matter what it takes." Plus, as I have previously mentioned, the shop assured me that if the tranny should quit and strand me they will come and get us if it be a weekday. So, all in all, I am lucky -to have found a bunch of honest mechanics. And my understanding is that there are plenty such honest mechanics and that there are many thousands of Powerglides on the road today, rebuilt and running smooth as a baby's backside. A decent mechanic can tell whether a tranny can be rebuilt or needs to be put to rest in the happy hunting grounds. No? But I get your point, Sharps40, and I will do the right thing with the guys once the truck is good. I know it will be made good because I have enough knowledge of machines and what is out there to repair machines. And I am not a poor man. Not rich, but not poor. My mechanic is always at the top of my Christmas list. -Alden

[Sharps40]

Sounds like yer heads on straight cause its sure pissin in his coffee will leave ya an empty wallet, a broken trans and yer horse outta the barn. Luck.

(But a powerglide is as poor an automatic today as the Dodge Fluiddrive was in 1948. When yer done chasin gremlins in an antique trans, ye'll be happier with modern.!!)

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by Sharps40

I think ya should count yerself lucky. Ya have a shop willing and able to try working on a 35+ year old obsolete transmission...

....They've worked on it till all the initial profit is gone and its out of their pocket, and all in the name of good customer relations.

...You and they have moved well beyond what most shops would give you these days by way of follow up even on a newer unit.

Might want to consider your investment well spent, lesson learned (old stuff is worn out before ya rebuild it and it'll never be Like New, its old stuff) and maybe even consider using this fine mecanic shop (as you have already seen demonstrated by them on the old PG trans) to help ya find a more reliable more modern transmission thereby gaining the reliability and confidence you require for a long journey.

...(But a powerglide is as poor an automatic today as the Dodge Fluiddrive was in 1948. When yer done chasin gremlins in an antique trans, ye'll be happier with modern.!!)

Uhh, no. Can't agree with you there. Like the guy said, he paid for a rebuilt transmission (with warranty) that makes the truck go down the road; 4-5 hours later it blew up. It doesn't matter if it costs them 10x what their profits are; it's their mistake, and they should be the ones to fix it. He and they both seem reasonable and understanding of this.

And a Powerglide is a very common/popular* trans that is known for it's record of great reliability and its simplicity/ease of rebuild. By contrast, many of the new autos cost thousands to have rebuilt (extremely complex) and are known for blowing up at very regular intervals. Nothing at all wrong with a PG if the 2-speed/no OD thing doesn't bother you. I just bought a '68 Impala with the original PG, and after some 46 years and 98,000 miles it still seems to be fine.

*BTW, here's that "antique trans" for you:

WORLDS FASTEST FORD MUSTANG ROB CAMPISI C&V...

5.95@260MPH in the 1/4 mile. Not too bad, IMHO...

[PGSigns]

That is odd you think a glide is junk. It is one of the best supported of all the old trans and a stock case glide with a good set of clutches and a valve body with a brake will hold 650 HP all day long. We put over 800 passes on one before it broke the case. Would suggest you do a little reading and get up to date on the poor old powerglide.
Jimmy

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by PGSigns

That is odd you think a glide is junk. It is one of the best supported of all the old trans and a stock case glide with a good set of clutches and a valve body with a brake will hold 650 HP all day long. We put over 800 passes on one before it broke the case. Would suggest you do a little reading and get up to date on the poor old powerglide.
Jimmy

This. The PG is a great trans.

[Sharps40]

He and they both seem reasonable and understanding of this.


Didn't sound that way, not when he has several posts indicating he's going to demand his money back and the shop is still workin their ass off on an obsolete trans....and by his own indications, perhaps the only one in the area that's can or is at least willing. I believe I'd hold my toung about money until the tran shop proves it cant or gives up.

But when I called it out....the tone seemed to change a bit. But perhaps not. Might just be the way I read it.

Ya can catch flys with poop or sugar. As long as the shop is workin hard, sugar is the way forward.

[66Submarine]

Originally Posted by thelawdoc

Regrettably, at this point, even if the shop gives me back the truck working perfectly, and even if they tell me some particular issue that they found, I doubt that I am going to be able to be comfortable and confident driving her. Right now, my heart for the truck is beginning to whither. My family is up in Maine waiting for me and I am spending my vacation time here in Brooklyn researching Powerglides. Perhaps the smart thing for me to do is to make this the final chance for my shop to make the rebuild good, and then -if it fails, demand my money returned and give the truck to another shop. For all the money I have spent with this shop and towing I could have bought a new, crate tranny! No? Perhaps someone from this forum knows of a Powerglide shop in Brooklyn. -Alden

Sounds like he's getting tired of wasting time with a shop that has taken three tries to rebuild a damn Powerglide. He didn't even actually say he was going to do that, and he clarified in his response. If it messes up yet again, I don't think asking for his money back is really that inexcusable. Maybe harsh, but on the other hand; why not give the money to a competent shop and support that guy?

Originally Posted by Sharps40

He and they both seem reasonable and understanding of this.


Didn't sound that way, not when he has several posts indicating he's going to demand his money back and the shop is still workin their ass off on an obsolete trans....and by his own indications, perhaps the only one in the area that's can or is at least willing. I believe I'd hold my toung about money until the tran shop proves it cant or gives up.

But when I called it out....the tone seemed to change a bit. But perhaps not. Might just be the way I read it.

Ya can catch flys with poop or sugar. As long as the shop is workin hard, sugar is the way forward.

It's THEIR FAULT they are "workin their ass off", and they understand that. If you say you are going to do something, you do it. I don't know what rock you've been living under, but a PG is a common trans that is still very popular with racing guys. Did you see the 5.95@260MPH PG I posted?

[Jurassic-1]

Seems you could see if the parts are worn when it is torn down. I had a trans shop repair a mercedes trans the shop thought a sprag may have been weak but assembled it any way I removed and installed it and when installed it would not move. I called them and he wanted me to remove it again and I towed it down and made him do it. The 2nd time he replaced the sprag and it still runs great 5 years later. It may have to be more closely inspected there has got to be something they have overlooked.

[thelawdoc]

66Submarine, nice video clip. And I looked at your web site but just quickly. I have to visit it. I like that stuff. -Alden

[thelawdoc]

Guys, thanks for your time and attention. The guys at the shop are all really great. They are honest and have no hesitation to tell me that they are "missing something going on here." I respect that. And attitude like that will keep me as a customer for life. When I mentioned in a previous post that I am coming to the point of asking for my money back, I was just muttering aloud between us in the forum; I was probably just a little frustrated. I would not have the heart to do so with these particular mechanics. I have lived long enough to know when I am dealing with people with integrity. Integrity trumps competence in my book. Give me an honest man anyday that makes mistakes before you give me a dishonest one who makes no mistakes. We all make mistakes. In today's world it is all too common for people to deny their mistakes. This shop is not going to let me go without getting to the bottom of what is wrong with my Powerglide. As I mentioned previously, today they asked of me to "give a hand" and drive the truck as much as possible so that the mechanic could get some other work done; and they directed that, no matter how nice she runs, that I have her back at the shop Monday morning at opening so that they can continue their endeavor. For me, that is integrity. And it is competence, too. And I believe them when they say they never had this happen before. I am not going to take the truck from them unless they tell me they give up -and I doubt they will. Finally, that they promised to come and get me no matter where I get stranded if the tranny quits, I can feel a little less nervous about driving my only vehicle. This truck will be just fine, and she will be with me for a long, long time to come.

I am not a mechanic, nor do I have any wealth of knowledge about trucks and cars. But I feel sure, based on my own research, that the Powerglide is a fine transmission. And it will suit my needs, which are basically just hauling materials from the local lumber yard and other building supply places for the cabin I am building in the woods of northeastern Maine. She will be a farm truck for a couple years. Then I will pimp her out a bit. I love this truck and love survives hiccups.

Some 16 years ago I bought a new SX70 Volvo. Right from the boat. In the period of the first year she was in the dealer's shop 6 or 7 times due to various defects and recalls. She stranded me twice. I lost time from work and had plenty of frazzled nerves. Don't make me remember. In 2006 I bought a new Harley Davidson. Within the first few weeks it happened that I was riding on the Belt Parkway and she shuts down. Imagine that. You are on a brand spanking new bike, in the left lane doing 55 or so, and your bike shuts down. Heavy traffic. New York drivers. Not pretty, guys. Not pretty at all. The dealer had the bike for more than a week, gave it back to me "repaired" and the very same thing happened about two or three weeks later. This went on for more than two months until a techie from HD came out and found the problem and fixed it. Let me tell you, I cheated the Grim Reaper a few times on that bike. So much for "new" or "modern."

Surely we all know that the age of a mechanical device does not, in and of itself, condemn it. There must be thousands upon thousands of vintage machines, many decades old, that are still working like new. It is all a matter of maintenance. Diagnostics. I have an Atlas 101 metalworking lathe. Made in the 1940's. It came to me rusted, battered, and ugly as sin. Even a scrapper would have turned his nose up at her, lol. I spent months cleaning her up. Months. And when I had her all ready to fire up, she would not work right. I took her apart. I put her together. Once, twice and more. In the end, the problem was simply something I missed. Me, myself, and I. Sure, I cussed and blamed the weather. But it was not the age of the machine that caused any issue. It was me. Sharps40, that 75 year old lathe will now make parts for my 50 year old Chevy C10. And long after I am gone, that lathe and that truck will roll on. You guys will see posts from my son, running that lathe and the C10, and you can reply to him and tell him about this thread. -Alden

[66Submarine]

Glad you liked the clip. I've been meaning to update my website, too; I guess I'll have to finally do it the next day or two. I've done a lot since the last update that I've yet to upload...

BTW, I hear you on the "modern" thing; the inherit reliability and simplicity is one of the reasons I like these trucks. Mine is also my daily/only driver. l happen to have some old metalworking machinery, too. Always nice to be able to fab stuff up!