Starting Delay

[morethanstock66]

Specs:

SBC, new wiring harness, new ignition switch, new starter, new alternator, new plugs, new wires, new distributor/coil, fairly new carb (manual choke), new fuel tank, new fuel sending unit, new fuel filter, new fuel pump.

Problem:

Every time when I try to start the truck and the engine is cold to lukewarm, It takes a good 5-10 full seconds to turn over. I prime the carb, Depending on the temperature, I use the choke, The switch engages instantly, the starter sounds strong, the battery is fully charged, but it takes forever to turn over. I'm not flooding it or anything. Once it turns over, it runs perfectly, it just takes entirely too long with me leaning on the starter.

Does anyone have any insight on a possible reason?

[markeb01]

Do you mean the engine is slow to crank, or slow to start? If there is a lengthy delay before is cranks, perhaps the starter needs shims to provide additional clearance between the drive and the flywheel teeth.

[morethanstock66]

It is very slow to start/turn over. The starter isn't binding or anything. It cranks instantly and spins the flywheel for quite a while before it runs. When it runs, it runs very well, it just takes unusually long to start.

[forestb]

I have the same problem some times. I f you are running an under the bed tank and a mechanical fuel pump like I am it might be that your fuel is taking a long time to get to the carb. So you have to crank the engine for a while. Just a guess I might be totally wrong.

[morethanstock66]

I was racking my brain and thought of the same thing- kind of a bleed back into the tank. However, my tank is in-cab with a mechanical pump. But, this is every time, driving me crazy

[markeb01]

I have the same problem with mine. It fires right up after it's been run at all, but on first start of the day is cranks way too long before lighting. There was a thread a couple of years ago suggesting it was the carburetor (Edelbrock). Many opinions on reasons and cures. I've come to believe it's the lousy gas available today. It both evaporates out of the fuel bowls, and also isn't as flammable as gas made 40 years ago.

I solved the problem by resorting to starting fluid. To make it easy, I added a fill tube below the throttle plates. I just slip off the rubber cap and give it a squirt:



And added a tube/nozzle from WD40 or something and glued the tube to the nozzle:



That gets stuck on a regular can of starting fluid:



One squirt and the engine fires instantly when I hit the key. I mean like right now, before it seems to have a chance to turn over. It lights immediately when I turn the key. I now use it all year except during really hot weather. I also have everything new. 33 gallon stainless tank in the rear, Carter electric fuel pump at the tank with an Aeroquip fuel filter ahead of the pump, stock filter on the frame under the passenger seat, all new fuel lines, and a Holley pressure regulator.

I have found no negative side effects from using starting fluid, and it saves burning up the starter or scoring the cylinders from perpetual cranking. I find it both embarrassing and potentially dangerous when I can't start a car quickly. This might not be as good as fuel injection, but it sure works well for a lot less money.

[morethanstock66]

Originally Posted by markeb01

I have the same problem with mine. It fires right up after it's been run at all, but on first start of the day is cranks way too long before lighting. There was a thread a couple of years ago suggesting it was the carburetor (Edelbrock). Many opinions on reasons and cures. I've come to believe it's the lousy gas available today. It both evaporates out of the fuel bowls, and also isn't as flammable as gas made 40 years ago.

I solved the problem by resorting to starting fluid. To make it easy, I added a fill tube below the throttle plates. I just slip off the rubber cap and give it a squirt:



And added a tube/nozzle from WD40 or something and glued the tube to the nozzle:



That gets stuck on a regular can of starting fluid:



One squirt and the engine fires instantly when I hit the key. I mean like right now, before it seems to have a chance to turn over. It lights immediately when I turn the key. I now use it all year except during really hot weather. I also have everything new. 33 gallon stainless tank in the rear, Carter electric fuel pump at the tank with an Aeroquip fuel filter ahead of the pump, stock filter on the frame under the passenger seat, all new fuel lines, and a Holley pressure regulator.

I have found no negative side effects from using starting fluid, and it saves burning up the starter or scoring the cylinders from perpetual cranking. I find it both embarrassing and potentially dangerous when I can't start a car quickly. This might not be as good as fuel injection, but it sure works well for a lot less money.

That is actually a really good idea. I just hate the fact that I would have to pop the hood each time, I suppose it beats the alternative though. I never remember having this much of a problem with my '67, with the 250 or 350. Has gas changed that much in 1.5-2 years?

[l79m20]

would an inline check valve work? ,this would allow gas in but not drain
back to tank.

[morethanstock66]

Originally Posted by l79m20

would an inline check valve work? ,this would allow gas in but not drain
back to tank.

Wouldn't an oscillating check valve impede fuel flow at WOT?

[markeb01]

I don't think gas draining back to the tank is the issue. One of the suggestions in the earlier thread was adding an electric pump to the system to "prime" the system when using a manual fuel pump. Additionally, I added a pressure gauge after the mechanical fuel pump and noted pressure was maintained for days if nothing was touched, so gas wasn't being allowed to drain down because of the manual fuel pump.

I added an electric pump for priming and it didn't help anything. I also replaced my 20 year old manual pump (which worked perfectly) and discovered all the new replacement pumps put out at least twice as much pressure as the carb can tolerate.

So I added a regulator, something else I've never needed before. And I continued having problems until I eliminated the manual pump. All the while, none of these changes improved the hard starting problem.

I don't know how long ago gasoline was downgraded, but it is definitely different today. I've seen shows where 30 year old gas will fire an engine right up, while 2 year old gas is mostly gone with all kinds of deposits and sediment in the carb. From the 1960's until the 1990's I never had trouble starting a carbureted engine no matter how long it sat around. I also never experienced my garage stinking of gas fumes after a fill up, until the last few years. The evaporation out the tank vent and carburetor bowl vents is terrible with the currently available gasoline.

[geezer#99]

With the craptastic fuel we have now you need to maximize your initial timing.
What's your initial timing set at?

[Mackie]

I had long cranking times after sitting more than a couple of days with my old 283 and mech. pump. I too blame the modern fuel. It's no doubt meant for closed systems and high pressure electric pumps...what's on the road today.

When I put in my new roller engine I had to use an electric pump so put in a Carter 4070 (6 lbs +or-) with a holley regulator set to 5lbs. feeding an Eddy 500. HEI dist. No more long cranking even after 2 week sit, just a 5 count after key on before cranking. I started it this winter on 0 deg. mornings by 5 count, five pedal pumps, crank with throttle shut and feather to keep running for 60 seconds.
Oh, and my choke is deleted.

[morethanstock66]

Originally Posted by markeb01

I don't think gas draining back to the tank is the issue. One of the suggestions in the earlier thread was adding an electric pump to the system to "prime" the system when using a manual fuel pump. Additionally, I added a pressure gauge after the mechanical fuel pump and noted pressure was maintained for days if nothing was touched, so gas wasn't being allowed to drain down because of the manual fuel pump.

I added an electric pump for priming and it didn't help anything. I also replaced my 20 year old manual pump (which worked perfectly) and discovered all the new replacement pumps put out at least twice as much pressure as the carb can tolerate.

So I added a regulator, something else I've never needed before. And I continued having problems until I eliminated the manual pump. All the while, none of these changes improved the hard starting problem.

I don't know how long ago gasoline was downgraded, but it is definitely different today. I've seen shows where 30 year old gas will fire an engine right up, while 2 year old gas is mostly gone with all kinds of deposits and sediment in the carb. From the 1960's until the 1990's I never had trouble starting a carbureted engine no matter how long it sat around. I also never experienced my garage stinking of gas fumes after a fill up, until the last few years. The evaporation out the tank vent and carburetor bowl vents is terrible with the currently available gasoline.

I agree, electric priming a mech. pump would be the same as priming via pedal. I do agree that the quality of gas is terrible. It has become almost tofu for cars.

Originally Posted by geezer#99

With the craptastic fuel we have now you need to maximize your initial timing.
What's your initial timing set at?

I was actually thinking about playing with the timing a bit to try and get a better start time after work today. I set timing by ear, myself.

Originally Posted by Mackie

I had long cranking times after sitting more than a couple of days with my old 283 and mech. pump. I too blame the modern fuel. It's no doubt meant for closed systems and high pressure electric pumps...what's on the road today.

When I put in my new roller engine I had to use an electric pump so put in a Carter 4070 (6 lbs +or-) with a holley regulator set to 5lbs. feeding an Eddy 500. HEI dist. No more long cranking even after 2 week sit, just a 5 count after key on before cranking. I started it this winter on 0 deg. mornings by 5 count, five pedal pumps, crank with throttle shut and feather to keep running for 60 seconds.
Oh, and my choke is deleted.

That is interesting, an electric pump with a carb, I have not used that setup before, I just feel that if I still use a carb, it would still have to be at a PSI that the mechanical pump would be able to provide. A choke delete in at 0 is brave to me.

[The Rocknrod]

I say it's timing. The carb has fuel bowls, there not empty.

[cg285]

Originally Posted by The Rocknrod

I say it's timing. The carb has fuel bowls, there not empty.

there's your best clue: maybe they are empty, especially if it's a quadrajet.
easy to check

timing is not an issue on cold start vs hot start

[jtrichard]

YOU said new dist BUT you did not say if its points or HEI?

[morethanstock66]

Originally Posted by The Rocknrod

I say it's timing. The carb has fuel bowls, there not empty.

I am just racking my brain on what it could be.

Originally Posted by cg285

there's your best clue: maybe they are empty, especially if it's a quadrajet.
easy to check

timing is not an issue on cold start vs hot start

It does not make sense to me, timing is easy to tweak back and forth, I may just play with it anyway. It has an Edelbrock 600 manual choke.

I drove it home from work, ~30mins. in traffic, Directly to talk to my apartment office. Upon parking engine temp was 170F, then back out to the truck to drive to my building. (elapsed time inside 3mins.) Same issue. This was the first issue with it being hot and doing it.

Originally Posted by jtrichard

YOU said new dist BUT you did not say if its points or HEI?

Sorry, It is HEI.

[Mackie]

HEIs like good solid 12 Volts. I run a 14ga. wire right from a "key on" fuse. If your power for the dizzy is still running through the old resistor, or even the old wiring, that could cause your problem.

[morethanstock66]

Originally Posted by Mackie

HEIs like good solid 12 Volts. I run a 14ga. wire right from a "key on" fuse. If your power for the dizzy is still running through the old resistor, or even the old wiring, that could cause your problem.

I see were this could be a problem, but I just did a full chassis wiring harness and have triple checked everything

[Mackie]

You can now probably rule out empty float bowls as your issue.
Set timing to 12-14 BTDC @ idle with vacuum disconnected and plugged, using a timing light. Verifying that your balancer marks are accurate to #1 piston TDC first is also a good idea. The outer rings have been known to slip.
Plug gap can be like .035", maybe more with HEI, too.

[morethanstock66]

Originally Posted by Mackie

You can now probably rule out empty float bowls as your issue.
Set timing to 12-14 BTDC @ idle with vacuum disconnected and plugged, using a timing light. Verifying that your balancer marks are accurate to #1 piston TDC first is also a good idea. The outer rings have been known to slip.
Plug gap can be like .035", maybe more with HEI, too.

I just went out there and checked the timing, plugs are right at .035", the balancer marks are incorrect, and I did not have a light, but I advanced the timing (by ear) a bit and let it cool off. Fired it back up when it was at ~100F and it started easier at about 4 full seconds. Progress is good. We shall see tomorrow morning though

[par4tom]

I'll try and contribute...

If you have fuel to the system, then the problem is a spark issue. (I'm assuming you are giving a couple of pumps to prime the motor.)

And by spark I mean a "spark at the right time."

I have an HEI (MSD Brand) and I have the plug gaps at .045. Even with the timing a bit off, my SBC fires up almost instantly with this setup...

It is somewhat sensitive to timing, but not as much as I would have thought and it doesn't require me to crank the motor over and over to get it going.

Focus on the spark side of the equation...make sure you have good voltage to the HEI (and coil if your HEI has one)

Tom

[morethanstock66]

Originally Posted by par4tom

I'll try and contribute...

If you have fuel to the system, then the problem is a spark issue. (I'm assuming you are giving a couple of pumps to prime the motor.)

And by spark I mean a "spark at the right time."

I have an HEI (MSD Brand) and I have the plug gaps at .045. Even with the timing a bit off, my SBC fires up almost instantly with this setup...

It is somewhat sensitive to timing, but not as much as I would have thought and it doesn't require me to crank the motor over and over to get it going.

Focus on the spark side of the equation...make sure you have good voltage to the HEI (and coil if your HEI has one)

Tom

I like that you are bringing it back to basics. Yes, I am priming it and the voltage checks out. I have an Accel set up and would be intrigued if it was a gap issue. I have always run .035 on all my SBC HEI setups, obviously with a small start delay before. I never thought HEI would need to be gapped differently? I will have to look into this..

[Palf70Step]

Factory spark plug gap for HEI equip small blocks is .045.

Edelbrock's are not real happy with heat, so it is a good idea to run a thick insulator/spacer between the carb and manifold.

Make sure you mixture is not to lean.

Is your choke hooked up and just wired open? (Mine is not hooked up so that is why I asked)

[morethanstock66]

Originally Posted by Palf70Step

Factory spark plug gap for HEI equip small blocks is .045.

Edelbrock's are not real happy with heat, so it is a good idea to run a thick insulator/spacer between the carb and manifold.

Make sure you mixture is not to lean.

Is your choke hooked up and just wired open? (Mine is not hooked up so that is why I asked)

I have never heard that, I feel kind of dumb now.. sorry. My mixture is definitely not too lean. I do have the choke hooked up, though I have not needed it as of yet..

I will look into a spacer, I just filled up this morning and was a bit underwhelmed at 8.06mpg-with these issues. I will re-gap the plugs a little later today and see if she starts a bit better. I am thinking the timing and plug gap will likely be the causes for these issues.