It's getting thick now

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Ahhhhhh the PRESSURE..........

I drop the bed off Saturday. Body/paint guy gave me a quote today, which came in around 12% less than I planned for, though I still need to clear something up. He's a nice "kid" (35ish), and says he can get this like new, but I got news for him, and I'll tell him, there will be a bonus for perfection. I'm not screwing around on this project, it's right or nothing. The project is 25 years in the making.

He's going to do this in his "spare time". Frame remains here and I do my part, body at his place until the paint booth. He's going to take his time, and I told him I'd be perfectly okay with a 2-3 year project. He says, nope, I'm hoping to do this in a year.

Looks like I'm going to be busy. Seems like a lot of cash, but in perspective, I've blown more on new. This is far better than new.

[68bowtie]

that sounds exciting. good idea with the carrot. now the waiting part!

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by 68bowtie

that sounds exciting. good idea with the carrot. now the waiting part!

Thanks............I've already offered the "carrot". He says "I like bonuses". I got things cleared up as well, we appear to be on the same track.

[Grumpy old man]

You have entered the "Body shop time zone " Oh ! The Horror !

I'm sure you've done your due diligence on your "spare time body man" BUT be very careful when placing your baby into someones hands and telling them your ok with 2-3 years time period for completion the energy expressed will wane as fast as the deposit is spent .

Here are a few things to consider before hiring a part time body man to build your truck and save yourself from what might possibly be your worst nightmare !

Have you seen actual finished / completed "perfect" work done by them ?

Have you talked to recent past customers who have "perfect" completed work ? That are happy with it ?

Do they have an actual adequate building for your project ? Working out of a 2 car garage at a rental house won't work .

Do they have the correct equipment ? A 25 gallon harbor freight air compressor and 80 amp baby mig can't do the job nor the $29.99 set of body hammers, Do they own a shrinking hammer ? A masking cart ?

Are there half finished other projects covered in months worth of bondo dust waiting to be worked on ?

Do you have a written contract with whats expected and when and the agreed upon price ? also when are partial payments to be made ? (their not going to work on your project for months let alone years waiting to get paid .

What quality supplies are being purchased ? who's supplying them ? and when ?

I could go on for hours about the horror stories of hiring "after hours workers " and not just body men .You know after working a full daytime shift at their real job and "bobby " has ball practice on Tuesdays and Saturdays and "sally" has gymnastics 3 nights a week and Mom wants everyone to go to the lake for the weekend , Well you get the picture .

I'm sure everything will be fine with your project these are just some things to consider for those who are looking for a "cheaper " way to get their project done without hiring a real shop to do the work in a timely fashion . I've had More than a few DOZEN of these after hour shops "projects" show up at my shop on a flatbed with the owner holding a police report and most where with lost/stolen parts and supplies and shoddy work where the owner ended up paying 2-3 times what it would have cost if they had considered having it done by a reputable shop in the first place .

You have very little recourse hiring anyone without a business license /stable location /or written signed contract .The days of a handshake are gone !

[hugger6933]

A long time ago I had a body man working for me and it started out as he had a fender or something on his ride that needed a dent fixed. I told him I don't mind if you fix it here after work. well that somehow gave him a green light to open his late night business and people were coming to him to get stuff done. He never "appeared" to buy any of his own stuff to work with and his light night work was shoddy at best. The work he did for me was really good but at night it was different. I ended up having to stop it cause he would sleep late and leave early [for parts and things I assume]and it just really got out of hand and then he was mad at me for stopping it. I'm sure this isn't gonna happen to you and I am happy that somebody is getting their truck done. Paint jail? Heck I'm the sheriff and can't even get my truck inside the shop To hope to get anything done to it. Jim

[Steve Cole]

Well said Grumpy! Heed his advice 71Chevy, things can go sour really quickly without a written agreement in place.

[LockDoc]

-
There are also some stories on here about parts being lost or thrown away because the guy working on the project forgot what they were for after a couple of years..... Just be very diligent and label all loose/small parts and keep a list and pictures of everything you take to him. You also have to throw divorces, bankruptcy's, moves, and a multitude of other things into the mix. I think what happens a lot of times is that the owners don't check on the status for months at a time and a lot of things can change in 6 months..... Just some things I have gleaned from reading posts on here.

LockDoc

[cooperhw]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

You have entered the "Body shop time zone " Oh ! The Horror !

I'm sure you've done your due diligence on your "spare time body man" BUT be very careful when placing your baby into someones hands and telling them your ok with 2-3 years time period for completion the energy expressed will wane as fast as the deposit is spent .

Here are a few things to consider before hiring a part time body man to build your truck and save yourself from what might possibly be your worst nightmare !

Have you seen actual finished / completed "perfect" work done by them ?

Have you talked to recent past customers who have "perfect" completed work ? That are happy with it ?

Do they have an actual adequate building for your project ? Working out of a 2 car garage at a rental house won't work .

Do they have the correct equipment ? A 25 gallon harbor freight air compressor and 80 amp baby mig can't do the job nor the $29.99 set of body hammers, Do they own a shrinking hammer ? A masking cart ?

Are there half finished other projects covered in months worth of bondo dust waiting to be worked on ?

Do you have a written contract with whats expected and when and the agreed upon price ? also when are partial payments to be made ? (their not going to work on your project for months let alone years waiting to get paid .

What quality supplies are being purchased ? who's supplying them ? and when ?

I could go on for hours about the horror stories of hiring "after hours workers " and not just body men .You know after working a full daytime shift at their real job and "bobby " has ball practice on Tuesdays and Saturdays and "sally" has gymnastics 3 nights a week and Mom wants everyone to go to the lake for the weekend , Well you get the picture .

I'm sure everything will be fine with your project these are just some things to consider for those who are looking for a "cheaper " way to get their project done without hiring a real shop to do the work in a timely fashion . I've had More than a few DOZEN of these after hour shops "projects" show up at my shop on a flatbed with the owner holding a police report and most where with lost/stolen parts and supplies and shoddy work where the owner ended up paying 2-3 times what it would have cost if they had considered having it done by a reputable shop in the first place .

You have very little recourse hiring anyone without a business license /stable location /or written signed contract .The days of a handshake are gone !

^^^^Very sound advice above^^^^
I would like to add that (In my opinion) the very worse thing the OP could have done was say "I'm ok with a multi year project". One day will come when he "should be working on your truck but he tells himself, no worries, he doesn't want it back for years".
Second worse (not mentioned) is to give up front money. Why should you? What has he done so far? Nothing? that's how much he should be paid. Nothing.
Much better deal is to ask him "what materials will you be needing/using on my truck this next 30 days. You can give him that money. Set it up so at the end of each month he invoices you for how much work he has completed and how much materials used. Pay the invoice. Simple.
You give him money and it gets spent and the next thing you know he's looking at your project like a burden as he's already spent the money and owes you the labor. You effectively lost the carrot.
You only have the carrot and the stick at your disposal. Spell it out in a contract what where when and how much/nice you expect.
If you already handed over cash it's a recipe for failure. But, the thread wasn't opened until after the deal was made.
"ASK ALL OF US OLD GUYS HOW WE LEARNED THESE LESSONS" Yep. The hard way.
J.M.O.

[hugger6933]

Now there are two sides that that thing can can fall on, Sometimes a man takes a truck to a shop expecting say a couple of patch panels done then the next thing you know the guy is wanting [or expecting] a frame off type thing. I have gotten into that take a job it that is supposed to be patch the roof on this and it end up being a total involved deal like a full on body job plus a LS swap.
Some customers sit and look at cool stuff on here and say I want that too or try this or do this thing here and be full on different than the plan worked ahead of time. That can defiantly change things up a shop on time and price. Jim

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Grumpy old man:

Understood. My "2-3 year comment" was made for my benefit. Has to do with time/money, as I retire in 1.5 years and will have "some" spare time. That said, I have a big dose of time off coming this year anyway.

As for the body/pain guy, he just bought a new compressor for his place (I may have had something to do with that). He's done some work for me and it was very well done, and he went out of his way on some things, including high quality materials. He works full time at a body shop, and has a lot of experience. He's also conscientious. This all started because I work with his wife, who is a peach. I figured if he was her spouse it had to be good, and so far, that's been right intuition. She also knows me very well. I can be a "bit" particular.

Thanks for all the advise all.

[70cst]

Best of luck and we want to see pics when its done.
I was very fortunate to find a take off bed for my truck. My bed wasn't fixable.

[leddzepp]

Welcome to my nightmare comes to mind...and I don't think you'll like it, lol.

[Grumpy old man]

Well... It sounds like your happy with your situation and I wasn't directing my comment to you , Just an opinion on after hour workers from someone who has had to clean up the mess left behind DOZENS of times !

[davepl]

Originally Posted by LockDoc

-
There are also some stories on here about parts being lost or thrown away because the guy working on the project forgot what they were for after a couple of years..... Just be very diligent and label all loose/small parts and keep a list and pictures of everything you take to him. You also have to throw divorces, bankruptcy's, moves, and a multitude of other things into the mix. I think what happens a lot of times is that the owners don't check on the status for months at a time and a lot of things can change in 6 months..... Just some things I have gleaned from reading posts on here.

LockDoc

Please stop embellishing my story. It was an old deflated spare tire lost by the shipper. I was pissed the day I wrote about it. It does not need to become legend. People (like me, anyway) won't share info like that if it keeps getting beat to death. It was a useful tip - communication is KEY to an ongoing, particularly multi-year restoration. Leave it at that. If the experience was bad I wouldn't keep going across country at great expense to repeat it, would I? Of course not. So let's characterize it like that.

That all said, "like new" and "perfection" are light years and tens of thousands of dollars apart. Have you seen original paint on a GM 60s car? Not perfect. In fact I'm picking up my new Z06 today and haven't seen it yet, and am really worried about orange peel (there have been problems). And that's 2015! Worse they don't put enough clear on cars today to sand them out safely.

Go pick up this month's Car Craft and look at the black '68 Hemi Charger that MCR just did. If you have any questions after that, I'm happy to answer them. I bet that paint job cost $80K no matter where you get it done or who does it (and few ever could), unless it's charity work. I bet the build was an easy $300K, depending on the car they started with. Heck, even a crate 572 Hemi is $30K. But someone on here has a buddy that could built the whole car for $50K, I know, I know...

All of your other stuff is spot on. Probably among worst forms of "paint jail" is when you have a collision shop do the work, and yours only gets touched when there's absolutely no lucrative and easy collision work to do.

A friend of mine had a beautiful (from all appearances) '67 Coronet RT convertible 440. I thought it looked great, but he wanted more. So they tore the car down and it was unsalvageable at any reasonable cost. He sold the motor and was so devastated he never owned another classic vehicle again.

There are also many cases of cars being blown apart by independents or small shops that then just go out of business or stop working, and your car is in baskets. Which is the origin of "basket case" I imagine?

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

You have entered the "Body shop time zone " Oh ! The Horror !

You have very little recourse hiring anyone without a business license /stable location /or written signed contract .The days of a handshake are gone !

Even though I don't always get along with him, listen to this man and re-read his post. He sounds almost as smart as me.

Handshake deals are still out there, you just have to know who the heck you're shaking hands with. And having a friend restore your car is like wallpapering with your wife... it can get ugly.

[outlaw 3454]

hehe, having owned a body shop before, its a mortal sin to tell a body shop you are in no hurry, and especially a year or more! you and him will fall out over this, i wish you luck.

[CarterD2015]

Originally Posted by hugger6933

A long time ago I had a body man working for me and it started out as he had a fender or something on his ride that needed a dent fixed. I told him I don't mind if you fix it here after work. well that somehow gave him a green light to open his late night business and people were coming to him to get stuff done. He never "appeared" to buy any of his own stuff to work with and his light night work was shoddy at best. The work he did for me was really good but at night it was different. I ended up having to stop it cause he would sleep late and leave early [for parts and things I assume]and it just really got out of hand and then he was mad at me for stopping it. I'm sure this isn't gonna happen to you and I am happy that somebody is getting their truck done. Paint jail? Heck I'm the sheriff and can't even get my truck inside the shop To hope to get anything done to it. Jim

My dad had a very similar experience. Then when he asked him to leave tools and equipment disappeared.

[LockDoc]

Originally Posted by davepl

Please stop embellishing my story. It was an old deflated spare tire lost by the shipper. I was pissed the day I wrote about it. It does not need to become legend. People (like me, anyway) won't share info like that if it keeps getting beat to death. It was a useful tip - communication is KEY to an ongoing, particularly multi-year restoration. Leave it at that. If the experience was bad I wouldn't keep going across country at great expense to repeat it, would I? Of course not. So let's characterize it like that.

Wow Dave, where did that come from!!!! I wasn't referring to ANY of your threads or posts, and I don't think I even read the thread you are referring to. I was talking about a guy in Texas that had parts from his truck lost/stolen/discarded by the "body man" that had his truck in paint jail for over 3 years. Just because you are upset by a thread you posted I don't think you need to take it out on me..... I think you owe me an apology.

Just my 2¢ worth.

LockDoc

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

No, but seriously (ha), he's more in a hurry than I am. I would be perfectly okay with a 2-3 project.

As for tracking parts, other than the body for paint everything will be at my place. This is my first project, so you bet I'll be tracking items until my head hurts.

[SS Tim]

Originally Posted by 71CHEVYSHORTBED402

...I would be perfectly okay with a 2-3 project...

You say that now but soon enough you are going to be in the middle of the "forevers"? When its taken forever and there is still forever (it seems) to go.

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by SS Tim

You say that now but soon enough you are going to be in the middle of the "forevers"? When its taken forever and there is still forever (it seems) to go.

I hear ya..........We drew up a contract today. Actually I did, pending his review. Common sense stuff, so we both know what to expect. I wrote done deal by June 6, 2017, but "expected date of completion by June 6, 2016".

I need a good mechanic doing home visits. Honestly, I think I can do this tear down prep/reassemble for cab removal myself, but I'm not going to mess with the steering. I'm no mechanic, but these trucks are pretty straight forward. No engine work needed (though maybe mounts). That was done 40K miles ago and remains happy.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by LockDoc

Wow Dave, where did that come from!!!! I wasn't referring to ANY of your threads or posts, and I don't think I even read the thread you are referring to. I was talking about a guy in Texas that had parts from his truck lost/stolen/discarded by the "body man" that had his truck in paint jail for over 3 years. Just because you are upset by a thread you posted I don't think you need to take it out on me..... I think you owe me an apology.

Just my 2¢ worth.

LockDoc

I do and did in PM, and will again here: I thought you were rehashing my "lost a tire in transit" story again, and you were not. I assumed incorrectly, and am sorry.

Cheers,
Dave

[davepl]

Originally Posted by 71CHEVYSHORTBED402

I hear ya..........We drew up a contract today. Actually I did, pending his review. Common sense stuff, so we both know what to expect. I wrote done deal by June 6, 2017, but "expected date of completion by June 6, 2016".

Or what?

It is absolutely essential that you and whoever is doing the work are on exactly the same page. When I did my full frame-off at MCR they have about a 20-page questionnaire (do you want your glass date coded? Well, how would they know?). Then we had probably 200+ emails on top of that. And visits in person, even though it's across the country from me.

That all said, if it takes him 5 years instead of 2, what are you going to do? Sue him in small claims court? For what? Loss of enjoyment? So you've done the right thing in setting expectations, but know well it's unenforceable and changes nothing (unless it serves to make it clear you're seriously concerned).

It's always hard and risky to business with friends and family. Just keep that in mind as an extra potential "cost".

Unless you're talking about serious savings, I wouldn't throw it into a shop to be worked on "whenever" to be done "someday".

[71CHEVYSHORTBED402]

Originally Posted by davepl

Or what?

It is absolutely essential that you and whoever is doing the work are on exactly the same page. When I did my full frame-off at MCR they have about a 20-page questionnaire (do you want your glass date coded? Well, how would they know?). Then we had probably 200+ emails on top of that. And visits in person, even though it's across the country from me.

That all said, if it takes him 5 years instead of 2, what are you going to do? Sue him in small claims court? For what? Loss of enjoyment? So you've done the right thing in setting expectations, but know well it's unenforceable and changes nothing (unless it serves to make it clear you're seriously concerned).

It's always hard and risky to business with friends and family. Just keep that in mind as an extra potential "cost".

Unless you're talking about serious savings, I wouldn't throw it into a shop to be worked on "whenever" to be done "someday".

Or no payment. Trust me, it's a two-page contract. This truck restore business is mostly new to me, but I do know contracts. Other than that we're keeping it simple. And I have a really good feeling about this guy. He asks the right questions and I provide an answer, which usually takes some research on my part. He's very conscientious and has lots of experience.

Bed came off today, and found another $1000 to blow. New exhaust system, u-joints, shocks. Jeeeeeeez......I may hit 30K when this is all said and done. Nearly twice what I had originally planned for. Can't wait for the day I put on new tires/wheels, bumpers, lenses and this and thats.

[davepl]

My truck was a fixed bid $20K plus metalwork. I had longhorn seams and CB radio hole and some stuff welded, but it was 100% rust-free.

The local quotes I got never dipped below $17K (no metalwork), so it's not like I just went with the same old out of habit.

If you come out of a body-off restoration under $30K, you're rocking it. I'd budget $3K for safety things (front end, steering box, shocks, bushings) at the high end, but I'd make sure that was done before a drop of paint went on!