Coilover question!

[samples45]

Hey guys, I'm a bit confused on coilovers, never worked with them before. I got some QA1 for front and back. I called qa1 and asked them the ride height for the shocks I have and made my mounts for the specs they game me. As the truck sits right now it needs to come down about a inch and half to two inches. How much do y'all think it would come down when everything is on the truck? I can't adjust my spring any lower and they are 12 inch 450 pound springs. Anyone running front coilovers wanna chime in or just anyone that knows coilovers cause I sure don't!

[samples45]

Sorry it's sideways I'm on my phone and not sure how to fix it!

[dsraven]

at ride height you would want the lower control arms to be parallel to the ground. tough to see that with my head on sideways, but is that how yours are? if not then the front end geometry will be off because as the control arm travels up and down it actually moves the ball joint in an arc and effectivelt moved the tire contact patch in and out from the frame. if you start out with it above or below the parallel line then the alignment will suffer. if it is a problem you can fix it with drop spindles. the coil overs can be adjusted a bit but if it puts the front end out of whack then it has an effect on bump steer, and how the tires fit in the fender openings (the tires are going to tip in or out, depending on the relationship of the upper and lower control arm angles). as example, if the lower control arm is angled up to start and the upper is angled down, like yours is (I can see that one easily) then as the vehicle goes over a bump the lower is going to travel upwards and the arc will bring the lower ball joint closer to the frame but the upper control arm will take an arc up, past the level mark which will tip the tire outwards first, then when past the level mark the upper ball joint comes back inwards on it's arc. if you are running close tire to fender clearance you may have a problem.
as it sits it looks like the drivers side is a different angle than the passengers side. maybe my eye. it would be good to talk with a front end alignment guy and see what he says. also, check the geometry on the spec sheet for whatever front end you have there and set it up according to what is correct for that set up, then decide if the stance is what you want. if not correct it by getting the right spindle set.

[dsraven]

also, by dropping the coils to get a lower stance you limit the suspension travel and can bottom out. you want to ensure there are snubbers in place so you don't bust a coil over (or a dental fixture...).

[samples45]

Originally Posted by dsraven

at ride height you would want the lower control arms to be parallel to the ground. tough to see that with my head on sideways, but is that how yours are? if not then the front end geometry will be off because as the control arm travels up and down it actually moves the ball joint in an arc and effectivelt moved the tire contact patch in and out from the frame. if you start out with it above or below the parallel line then the alignment will suffer. if it is a problem you can fix it with drop spindles. the coil overs can be adjusted a bit but if it puts the front end out of whack then it has an effect on bump steer, and how the tires fit in the fender openings (the tires are going to tip in or out, depending on the relationship of the upper and lower control arm angles). as example, if the lower control arm is angled up to start and the upper is angled down, like yours is (I can see that one easily) then as the vehicle goes over a bump the lower is going to travel upwards and the arc will bring the lower ball joint closer to the frame but the upper control arm will take an arc up, past the level mark which will tip the tire outwards first, then when past the level mark the upper ball joint comes back inwards on it's arc. if you are running close tire to fender clearance you may have a problem.
as it sits it looks like the drivers side is a different angle than the passengers side. maybe my eye. it would be good to talk with a front end alignment guy and see what he says. also, check the geometry on the spec sheet for whatever front end you have there and set it up according to what is correct for that set up, then decide if the stance is what you want. if not correct it by getting the right spindle set.

Thanks for the response! That a corvette k member and veter a arms and spindles. I set the truck on jack stands so that the bottom a arms were level to the ground and then install the brackets and coilovers as I let the truck down on the ground it came out with the a arms not sitting level and being about two inches to high. The only thing I can come up with is I need shorter shocks and springs? With the truck sitting on the ground my shock has 3 1/2 travel up and down! But my spring is as low as I can get it.. What do you think now?

[_Ogre]

it really won't do you any good to set the ride height without the sheet metal and rest of your truck together
it will get lower as you add more weight
unless you just want to take pictures now

[samples45]

Originally Posted by _Ogre

it really won't do you any good to set the ride height without the sheet metal and rest of your truck together
it will get lower as you add more weight
unless you just want to take pictures now

Well that was another concern I had! I wasn't for sure how much it would drop? I just didn't think the extra stuff was gonna be enough to lower it two more inches? I'm a over thinker! I lose sleep over stuff like this :/ lol

[_Ogre]

this is my mustII front end with the cab on, i had to jack the frame down against a beam to get the shock nut on
the fenders, bumpers, doors, glass, interior, wiring, etc... all adds weight to bring the front end down
the addition weight has dropped the front end of truk down approx 4'' or more

[ptc]

SUSPENSION Setup is really critical and takes many different steps for a good ride and great handling.

Step 1 - You have to work with the MIN and MAX of YOUR front suspension measurements to come up with the right spring and shock combo to begin with.

So with your A-arms on the frame connected to the spindle with the ball joints and all - compress the lower A-Arm all the way UP with no shock or spring and then take a measurement between the shock mounting points. That is your MIN distance. or FULLY COLLAPSED position of the shock.

Now let the A-arm drop to its full down position and take another measurement and this is your MAX distance. or FULLY EXTENDED position of your shock.

Subtract 1/2" from the compressed length to allow for bump stop compression.

Once you have the MIN and MAX for your shocks, find one that is as close as possible to your measurements. You may not find a shock that fits exactly and that, if available, more travel (a shorter collapsed length and longer extended length) is preferable. ALWAYS GO LARGER

Step 2 - Coil spring choices - Remember that the shock absorbs and provides rebound to road bumps and oscillations. the coil spring provides support for the vehicle and thats why it has to be rated to total weight. So get the weight right first.... otherwise its going to be a VERY STIFF ride no matter what. and your shock wont work right.

Then you have to work with a Spring Height measurement that is LESS THAN your shock length, so that you have adjustability of that "coil-over spring". You dont want any preload on the spring and you dont want to have any gaps at the bottom either. so get a spring within those parameters.


Step 3 - Then Set ride height; heres a great step by step explanation of it from a racing background.

http://www.meganracing.com/tech/?id=75

[HUSSEY]

You could estimate how much the front wold come down knowing the spring rate of the springs, lbs/in. and guess how much weight you'll still mount on the front.

But as Orge suggested, I wouldn't sweat it too much till you get the front fully assembled.

[Coupeguy2001]

I put a kimbridge frame stub on my 57 3200. the springs wouldn't bring the front up to where I wanted so I bought coilovers from QA1. I bought 550 springs.
I turned the nuts all the way down, and installed them. Then i had to spun the nuts 2 1/4 inches.
I had to take out all thealignment shims, and there was no bringing it in to camber range. I lowered the nuts to 1 3/4 inches, and
That got me in the ball park for alignment.
If you raise the truck too much, there is too much camber.
If you drop it down, you have to add a ton of shims to get it in range because there is not enough....

my wheels were in too deep, so i used wheel spacers, that leveraged the springs so I had to use 550 springs to get it to the ride height.
I probably could have used 450, and spun the nuts higher, but it doesn't matter now, it rides a little firm, but when I come to a dip in the road ( like a water groove) it does not bottom out. It rides ok, and I can go around corners pretty good with a 1 1/8 inch sway bar in front. I have 4 foot long traction bars as well.
I added tubular upper control arms, and the alignment adjustments are super easy.

When I put my truck together, I used 600 Lb springs, and with no engine, it was at perfect ride height. With the engine in it and all the sheet metal, it was way too low. The coilovers add the threads below the nuts to get the ride height.

i would call the people you bought the suspension from, and find out the recommended spring rate, and go with that. You should have at least 5.5 inches of travel for a proper articulating suspension on a truck.

Point is, all vehicles are different from each other. you need to adjust your springs to work with your truck, and dial in the front. So if things are not right, call the manufacturer, not the company that sold it to u unless it was the manufacturer.

Key word here is adjust adjust adjust adjust.

[samples45]

Thanks guys! Ill try to explain the best i can of what i did, I didnt put the brackets on the frame and bottom a arms till i got the coil overs, When i got them i called QA1 and told them what i was working with and the guy on the phone told me to put my truck on jack stands so that the bottom a arms were level. so i did that, then they told me the recomended ride hieght for the shocks i had and told me what the eyelet to eyelet should be on the brackets and i set it all up and welded them on. I got the coilovers from a guy that had the same set up as me with the vette stuff and the same truck, he went with air ride. well one pair of shocks were 17in extended and 11.6 compressed with 12inch 450lb springs. the other set was 15 extended and 11.1 compressed with 10inch 300lb springs. the first thing i thought of was the 450lb set up went up front so i made my brackets where the eyelets were 13inches apart at ride height with the 12inch 450lb sprind. the spanner nut was all the way to the bottom and set about 2 inches to tall. i called them back and told them what was goin on and they told me the 15 extended and 11.1 compressed shock would work better in the front but i needed 10inch 450lb springs and 12inch 300lb for the rear. now when i did all this i didnt have the truck togeather. i just had the motor and cab on. now i dont know if i need to put the taller shocks and the 12inch 450lb up front and hopefully the truck weight will bring them down so i can adjust the spanner nuts up on the shock body some or if i need to put the smaller shocks up front and order different springs. with the truck sitting 2 inches to tall and the shocks are as low as they can go i was not sure the extra weight was still gonna be enough? what do you guys think i should do??

[dsraven]

assuming you have the coil over mounts correct for their recommended range:

-set the lower control arms at level and parallel to the ground. do what you gotta do to mock up the rest of the front suspension so the unit can be set back down at some point.
-make some struts to replace the coil overs at that height where they are in the middle of their travel range, if that is what is recommended-some guys use a length of pipe with whatever you need for mounts welded on the ends-some guys even make these links adjustable for fine tuning- that will be your ride height.
-mock up the front end sheet metal and put the wheels on.
set it back down on the ground and see if you like the stance. if yes then all is good and you get the right springs when you have it all put back together, if not then get the spindle set that will work for the ride height you want.
-this way the coil over is set up to be in the middle of it's intended travel and you won't bottom it out by running too close to one end of the coil over's travel range.
-remember that a change in rake-by lowering or raising the front end, will have an effect on front end alignment and the techs ability to get the front end into spec range. check what the geometry is supposed to look like for that model of front end so you can mirror that in your build when you have the unit sitting at the rake angle you like.
-when I was doing that on my build I used plain old cheap black pipe from home hardware and welded on ends that mimicked the ends of the shocks. front and rear. then the unit doesn't move when it is all bolted up and this makes it easier to assemble and get the angles correct etc.
-have fun, ask questions, take pics, post'em.

[samples45]

Originally Posted by dsraven

assuming you have the coil over mounts correct for their recommended range:

-set the lower control arms at level and parallel to the ground. do what you gotta do to mock up the rest of the front suspension so the unit can be set back down at some point.
-make some struts to replace the coil overs at that height where they are in the middle of their travel range, if that is what is recommended-some guys use a length of pipe with whatever you need for mounts welded on the ends-some guys even make these links adjustable for fine tuning- that will be your ride height.
-mock up the front end sheet metal and put the wheels on.
set it back down on the ground and see if you like the stance. if yes then all is good and you get the right springs when you have it all put back together, if not then get the spindle set that will work for the ride height you want.
-this way the coil over is set up to be in the middle of it's intended travel and you won't bottom it out by running too close to one end of the coil over's travel range.
-remember that a change in rake-by lowering or raising the front end, will have an effect on front end alignment and the techs ability to get the front end into spec range. check what the geometry is supposed to look like for that model of front end so you can mirror that in your build when you have the unit sitting at the rake angle you like.
-when I was doing that on my build I used plain old cheap black pipe from home hardware and welded on ends that mimicked the ends of the shocks. front and rear. then the unit doesn't move when it is all bolted up and this makes it easier to assemble and get the angles correct etc.
-have fun, ask questions, take pics, post'em.

Thanks man! Ill get it worked out. I just hate when I don't really know what I'm doin lol

[samples45]

What spring rates do most people run in the front of a task force? Sb

[dsraven]

well, the front end is a pretty important piece so get it right the first time and save a bunch of headaches later.
-usually the lower control arm is supposed to be parallel to the ground both looking from the front or the side. you can pick up a cheap digital magnetic torpedo level to aid in this process. don't just go off the cross member because the pivot bolt could be off a few degrees from that surface and that will affect the control arm angle. remember the front end alignment guy does stuff to the tenth of a degree so if you just eyeball or say "good enough" you may regret it later when he says "that's as close as I could get it".
-the upper control arm is sometimes sloped up from the pivot (looking from the front) so that the tire leans in as it travels up when going over bumps. this can eliminate tire rubbing.
-there is a slight downward towards the rear angle for the upper control arm pivot as well. this is called anti dive. google it for more info.
-it is a good idea to make some of those (adjustable) shock eliminator struts so you can get things all levelled up and sitting correctly as you go along with tacking pieces on or mocking up for ride height, rake angle etc. I used some jack stands at each corner, with the sliding part removed and some iron welded on that hole, with a nut welded on top of that, to accept some large threaded rod bolted through existing holes in the frame it was easier to level side to side and get the rake angle correct and it doesn't matter if there are discrepancies in the levelling of the shop floor that way. a lot of guys are using 2 degrees of rake angle but that is totally up to your own liking.

[_Ogre]

either way your wasting your time until you have the truck all the way together
as for using a digital level? eyeball is good, it's not rocket science

[tmoble]

>>>with the truck sitting 2 inches to tall and the shocks are as low as they can

do you mean the adjuster is all the way to the bottom of the threads or the shock itself is bottomed out?

You'll be surprised how much the added weight of the rest of the truck will bring it down. If you really want to see it, buy a couple pieces of 1/2" threaded rod, make a couple of coil-over eliminators. use nuts on the rod to set the height wherever you want, finish the truck including interior, then install your coilovers and adjust as necessary.

[57chevyman]

...

[Coupeguy2001]

Yea, T mobil is right. My truck dropped a full 3 inches with engine and trans, radiator,(with coolant) engine oil, oil cooler, and power steering fluid, brake fluid, steering gear box, exhaust, and battery.
In fact, I used a complete Firebird aluminum serpentine belt setup with aluminum water pump, aluminum heads, and eliminated the engine driven fuel pump to lighten it up. (course i moved the engine back 2 inches to help, and had to take off the pump.)

[samples45]

Originally Posted by tmoble

>>>with the truck sitting 2 inches to tall and the shocks are as low as they can

do you mean the adjuster is all the way to the bottom of the threads or the shock itself is bottomed out?

You'll be surprised how much the added weight of the rest of the truck will bring it down. If you really want to see it, buy a couple pieces of 1/2" threaded rod, make a couple of coil-over eliminators. use nuts on the rod to set the height wherever you want, finish the truck including interior, then install your coilovers and adjust as necessary.

The adjuster is all the way to the bottom! The shock is not bottomed out at all! And yeah I'm thinking of doin that and waiting till I finish the truck!

[samples45]

Originally Posted by 57chevyman

...

Thank you!

[samples45]

Originally Posted by Coupeguy2001

Yea, T mobil is right. My truck dropped a full 3 inches with engine and trans, radiator,(with coolant) engine oil, oil cooler, and power steering fluid, brake fluid, steering gear box, exhaust, and battery.
In fact, I used a complete Firebird aluminum serpentine belt setup with aluminum water pump, aluminum heads, and eliminated the engine driven fuel pump to lighten it up. (course i moved the engine back 2 inches to help, and had to take off the pump.)

What spring weight did you use in the front? And how tall were the springs??

[Coupeguy2001]

520 spring rate
17 inch tall sitting on the concrete, and supposed to be 11 inches loaded.
turned out to be 8.5 or so with the truck weight on them with about an inch off the bump stops.

my truck is not like most of the trucks here on the forum. I am running G body front suspension with spacers to kick the tires out to the front fenders.
I have about 5/8 clearance from the tires to the front fenders.
I have a 72 chevy truck rear axle, it's 8" wider per side than original axle, and used 96 impala wheels to kick the tires back in.
I have 3/8 clearance between the tire and the fender outside inner lip.
wheels are 10 " wide, tires total width are 11 " and inside fender is 12"
With the coilovers, the front to rear height ratio is really manageable. coilover spring rate is 550 and I have 1 3/4 inches of threads showing on the shocks.
To control the top of the tire kickout on bumps, I used the tall ball joint from Speedway motors. acts like tall spindle.
Tires are 255/50/17

Check out the pic and notice that the tires are really close to the fenders.