Tell me I am out of touch...

[Super_Dave]

So, I called Art Carr about a 2004r for my BABA YAGA! project C20. I got a reasonable quote for a 400hp version and all the goodies to hook it up and select gears.

Next I contacted my trans guy and he's not back from wintering in AZ yet. Apparently the trans business is good.

So, I called a shop that does my buddy's racing transmissions. He says "don't get an Art Carr. We have had to rebuild two of them."
Okay then... "what do you charge to build one?"
"$1650+ $250 core charge plus $1200 to install and you still need all the brackets, rods and what nots."

He says it takes 10-12 man-hours to drop the TH350, slide the cross-member back 6" and hook up the rods, brackets and TV cable.

Am I crazy to think 10-12 man-hours is excessive to R&R a transmission that is sent directly to you with EVERY PART KNOWN TO CIVILIZED MAN TO DO THE SWAP!?

[mongocanfly]

Wow..I mean $1200 wow! If he gets that much for that I'm in the wrong business.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

Wow..I mean $1200 wow! If he gets that much for that I'm in the wrong business.

You and me both!

I just called another family owned trans shop less than 5 miles away. They sponsor local drag racers. I will meet with them in the morning. He has a core and said he can build a non-lock up trans for a 400hp setup, installed for $2200-$2400.

[lilpoindexter]

I am a home mechanic...i did the 4L60E in a caprice station wagon....even without any experience. without a lift...there is no way it took me 12 hours to r&r the thing. I might have taken me 12 hours to actually rebuild it...but no way it took that long to remove and replace.

[Super_Dave]

Yeah... I just looked in the mirror but I didn't see anything on my forehead that said stupid, sucker or... worse.

I figure I could drop and replace the trans in two or three of hours. Hooking up the do-dad brackets and TV cable and getting it good enough to make it 3 miles to my carb shop would maybe be another couple hours. But since I am needing one built, I figure for the extra bucks, I would have someone younger and local do the heavy lifting. I am hoping the local shop I visit tomorrow isn't blowing smoke up my pant leg. I plan on taking in a spec sheet from Bowtie for them to compare against.

[mongocanfly]

I just did a remove/replace on a 4l60 in a 4wd a month ago ,, total time involved by myself was around 3 hrs.. I do have a 2 post lift and a trans jack though

[riz]

You're out of touch.............. anything else I can do for you?

RIZ

[Dead Parrot]

Was quoted a similar price here for swapping a 700r4 into a truck that currently has a TH350. IIRC the price was around $2500 total. That included all of the brackets, drive shaft mods etc. It does seem high but remember the shops have to comply with the piles of govt regulations and insurance company policies that we driveway mechanics don't.

[Firebirdjones]

Actually I'm not surprised.

10-12 hours?? Eh... The labor rate sounds normal at about $100 an hour. Most shops around here are anywhere from $65 to $120 an hour depending so I don't see that as out of line.

As far as the time involved there are 2 ways to look at it. A simple R&R that is reinstalling the same trans you took out, then yeah I can see your point that the time is excessive. But when you are removing something and then installing something else that the factory never meant to be there...well.....

I do quite a few OD swaps here and you almost always run into snags during the swap no matter how complete the kit is and no matter how easy the manufacture tells you the job is going to be. I haven't done one yet where I didn't have to spend some time modifying something to fit better, or make something to work better etc.... They are never just drop in and drive deals, not from my experience. So you have to quote labor high to cover your ass, and if it comes in under then the customer is pleasantly surprised

The cost and time involved really has a lot of people nowadays second guessing whether they want to go through with an overdrive swap from a cost vs reward perspective. Most now are figuring they aren't driving their classics enough to worry about a 20-30% gain in fuel mileage.

With all that said, your swap may not be all that horrible being a big truck, there is more room to work and less things that get in the way. Assuming you are doing this in a square, the fact that GM was already doing overdrives in these truck by the 1980's, so the parts and pieces are readily available and all the homework has already been done for you. It would likely be a bit easier than most cars I do. For example I just did an AOD in a 57 T-bird and that was a total pain in the rump. Had to cut and modify the X-frame to make it fit, with the engine/trans pulled several times test fitting. Made my own cross member because there are no kits that offer one for this car, had to make a custom driveshaft etc... I had 4 days in that project alone.

[BamaDave]

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/streetfigh...ter-242500html

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by riz

You're out of touch.............. anything else I can do for you?

RIZ

Thanks RIZ, I feel soooo much better now!

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by Dead Parrot

Was quoted a similar price here for swapping a 700r4 into a truck that currently has a TH350. IIRC the price was around $2500 total. That included all of the brackets, drive shaft mods etc. It does seem high but remember the shops have to comply with the piles of govt regulations and insurance company policies that we driveway mechanics don't.

$2500 is livable... the first guys price, including all the hardware, would have ended up in the $3500 range... I will be leaving shortly for another shop nearby, that verbally quoted $2200-$2500.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Actually I'm not surprised.

10-12 hours?? Eh... The labor rate sounds normal at about $100 an hour. Most shops around here are anywhere from $65 to $120 an hour depending so I don't see that as out of line.

I am not worried about the labor rate... more about the total hours.

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

As far as the time involved there are 2 ways to look at it. A simple R&R that is reinstalling the same trans you took out, then yeah I can see your point that the time is excessive. But when you are removing something and then installing something else that the factory never meant to be there...well.....

One of the reasons I stayed with the 2004r is because of the "ease" of the swap... same bolt pattern as the TH350, same length as the TH350, just moving the corss-member back 6" to "existing" holes... all these things for an experienced shop that swaps 2004r's into race cars all the time. 10-12 hours for a high school auto shop student maybe.

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

I do quite a few OD swaps here and you almost always run into snags during the swap no matter how complete the kit is and no matter how easy the manufacture tells you the job is going to be. I haven't done one yet where I didn't have to spend some time modifying something to fit better, or make something to work better etc.... They are never just drop in and drive deals, not from my experience. So you have to quote labor high to cover your ass, and if it comes in under then the customer is pleasantly surprised

I understand completely. However, it has been my experience that most shops have never charged me less than quoted... but more, for all sorts of reasons. When I was younger I did it all from one end to the other, top to bottom. Being in my 60's there are things I cannot do physically. Shops may think I am an old geezer who doesn't know what they are talking about, but in actuality, I am an old geezer who just can't do the heavy lifting like I use to do.

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

The cost and time involved really has a lot of people nowadays second guessing whether they want to go through with an overdrive swap from a cost vs reward perspective. Most now are figuring they aren't driving their classics enough to worry about a 20-30% gain in fuel mileage.

Definitely been having those thoughts. It's not just the increase in fuel efficiency, but the reduced wear and tear on the SBC and increasing it's longevity, which is more important to me.

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

With all that said, your swap may not be all that horrible being a big truck, there is more room to work and less things that get in the way. Assuming you are doing this in a square, the fact that GM was already doing overdrives in these truck by the 1980's, so the parts and pieces are readily available and all the homework has already been done for you.

You hit the nail on the head. It's not a "reinventing the wheel" swap. My 1974 C20 build shares all the same characteristics of the later squares that bolted these things in every day of the week. ALL the parts are readily available to make it a simple deal for an "experienced race shop."

[Super_Dave]

$2796...

Originally Posted by BamaDave

http://www.tciauto.com/tc/streetfigh...ter-242500html

$1850...
https://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/cat....php?ITEMID=12
https://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/cat...php?ITEMID=265

Perhaps the TCI Brand and their free shipping makes the $946 higher price worth it. Granted, I don't know what Bowtie charges for shipping, but it can't be $950.

I have heard a lot of good stuff about Bowtie. It might be that I go that route and pony up for the install locally, once I find a shop that is more in touch with reality.

[Firebirdjones]

Yup Dave, just giving you different perspectives on things that some people don't take into consideration.

My personal take on it, it's going to be a pretty straight forward swap so shouldn't be bad. TV cable on the older overdrives sometimes require aftermarket lokar stuff if you aren't running a factory carb that would accept it. Sometimes that gets into making a small bracket on the intake (I don't like some of the hokey aftermarket stuff), just another little obstacle. I'd likely have a little time in the swap myself because I'm more detail oriented than most "get it out the door" shops.

[wilkin250r]

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Actually I'm not surprised.

I do quite a few OD swaps here and you almost always run into snags during the swap no matter how complete the kit is and no matter how easy the manufacture tells you the job is going to be. I haven't done one yet where I didn't have to spend some time modifying something to fit better, or make something to work better etc.... They are never just drop in and drive deals, not from my experience. So you have to quote labor high to cover your ass, and if it comes in under then the customer is pleasantly surprised

I would agree if I'M doing the swap, but almost any shop I've ever seen doesn't have the same attention to detail that I do. If I don't like a cable routing, I'll drill a hole, put a rubber grommet, and buy a proper clamp and secure it to a bracket, and route it properly.

The shop is just going to route it wherever they can, and zip-tie it to an electrical wire. Done!

Not to trap you in your own words, but look at them. You are spending time modifying things to fit BETTER, or work BETTER. If it fits at all, even if it's crappy, most shops are just going to slap it together and call it good, on to the next project, time is money, go go go.

[Firebirdjones]

I touched on that above your post.

In other words, you get what you pay for in a lot of cases. Going the cheapest route isn't always the best route. I'm an exception in that regard.

[Super_Dave]

Well, I just got back from the local shop visit. After a lengthy discussion with Sam, I decided to go with a 700r4 non-lockup swap. We got a quote from the driveline shop and they will shorten and balance the driveline for $150-$200.

The quote is $2200-$2500 installed with the shortened driveline included, good for up to 500hp. Comes with a 3 year warranty.

So, time will tell if it was a wise move or I end up warning everyone to avoid them at all costs. I hate sounding pessimistic, but it seems times have changed for the worse so much these days, that all you can do is hope and pray for the best when you hire someone else to do what you can't do or buy something you can make yourself.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Yup Dave, just giving you different perspectives on things that some people don't take into consideration.

Perspectives are appreciated. The really good thing about them, is even if they don't always match one persons situation, someone down the road will be reading it and it will touch on their exact situation. Sharing is always welcome. That's why we are here in the first place.

I am cautiously excited about finally kicking off the BABA YAGA! build after a couple of years. I am looking forward to big changes in the coming months!

[gramps77]

I probably missed it, but what setup are you replacing?
I swapped a 700 into my longbed 77, replacing the TH350 and did NOT have to do anything to the driveline. If you are swapping from a TH350 with a long tail shaft, the 700 goes right in. In fact, the only thing I had to do was slide the stock transmission crossmember back and drill two new holes. Ive literally done a half dozen overdrive swaps and the pickup was the easiest by far.
All others were in 1st/2nd gen Novas/Chevy IIs.
Bowtie overdrives is VERY reputable and I used one of their 200r4s in a 66 Nova wagon, and then a 700 in my 65 super sport. Both transmissions were beat on and NEVER had an issue. If I remember correctly, their shipping was VERY fair

EDIT: I just went to your build thread and Im sorry Im not closer, we could knock that out in 2-3 hours. Taking a break once its out. Ask the shop how the intend to hook up your converter lockup. Go get a brake switch for a truck with cruise control and youre set. Just need to hook the original brake light wires to the front 2 prongs of the switch, connect the third to a switched 12v and then the 4th to your single wire hook up to the transmission. Its what Ive done for EVERY setup thus far.
http://transmissioncenter.net/700R4_Swap_Info.htm

[LEEVON]

Couple of thoughts...700R4 should be a good deal cheaper on the rebuild than a 2004R but both are getting harder to find every day. I have been calling a core buyer for a month to find a 2wd 700R4 with mechanical speedo. They cost me about $1000 rebuilt with upgrades and converter.

If you don't mind humoring me on your original question regarding labor, 10-12 hours is reasonable. It is an estimate and it is typically based on labor guides but must also be padded for "unknowns". As a shop owner it's hard to explain exactly how this works unless you have been in the middle of a busy shop. There are many variables such as how long the bay will be tied-up, from where and when the parts arrive, how much time we have to spend head-scratching or fabricating or on the phone with a supplier. We make our money (and nobody is getting rich) when things are predictable, like CV axles on a minivan. If we are not efficient it effects the bottom line and morale. If we take in something that is custom, non-factory or the customer has already worked on it we take risk. There are plenty of times where I have given the customer the benefit of this relationship and lost. It makes for bad business and it can leave a pit in the owner's stomach. Customers don't throw you a party when give them a gift, and you learn to protect yourself. This applies to any busy shop.

For example, I had a guy who kept bringing me classics that he bought at auction. He said he didn't care what it cost, he wanted me to work on them. It was little stuff and I did it for awhile. The last thing I did however was rebuild the distributor and carb on a '58 Cadillac. I must have spent 15 hours over two weeks sourcing unavailable little parts and pieces and making myself an expert on the Caddy. Could I charge him $1500? No he paid $400 because that's what its "worth". It was the last job I did for him and he understood why. But he has not been able to find anybody to work on that stuff for him, and its sad but it's the way things are today. A quality technician making $30/hour with benefits costs me more like $50-55/hr by the time you factor in payroll taxes, uniforms, health insurance, 401k, and whatever other labor burdens exist. The rest of the money that the customer pays goes to overhead, and if you are really good at what you do and your customers are awesome, and you don't have too many surprises at the end of the day there is a very small % left over to take home.

With that said, a regular transmission shop would probably charge around $600-700...but Art Carr is not a regular transmission shop. When it leaves there it will be done right!

[wilkin250r]

Originally Posted by gramps77

I EDIT: I just went to your build thread and Im sorry Im not closer, we could knock that out in 2-3 hours.

Plumas? Now you got my gears turning, because that's not too far from me! I could use some experience if/when I decide to do an overdrive swap in my Beast.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by LEEVON

Couple of thoughts...700R4 should be a good deal cheaper on the rebuild than a 2004R but both are getting harder to find every day. I have been calling a core buyer for a month to find a 2wd 700R4 with mechanical speedo. They cost me about $1000 rebuilt with upgrades and converter.

If you don't mind humoring me on your original question regarding labor, 10-12 hours is reasonable. It is an estimate and it is typically based on labor guides but must also be padded for "unknowns". As a shop owner it's hard to explain exactly how this works unless you have been in the middle of a busy shop. There are many variables such as how long the bay will be tied-up, from where and when the parts arrive, how much time we have to spend head-scratching or fabricating or on the phone with a supplier. We make our money (and nobody is getting rich) when things are predictable, like CV axles on a minivan. If we are not efficient it effects the bottom line and morale. If we take in something that is custom, non-factory or the customer has already worked on it we take risk. There are plenty of times where I have given the customer the benefit of this relationship and lost. It makes for bad business and it can leave a pit in the owner's stomach. Customers don't throw you a party when give them a gift, and you learn to protect yourself. This applies to any busy shop.

For example, I had a guy who kept bringing me classics that he bought at auction. He said he didn't care what it cost, he wanted me to work on them. It was little stuff and I did it for awhile. The last thing I did however was rebuild the distributor and carb on a '58 Cadillac. I must have spent 15 hours over two weeks sourcing unavailable little parts and pieces and making myself an expert on the Caddy. Could I charge him $1500? No he paid $400 because that's what its "worth". It was the last job I did for him and he understood why. But he has not been able to find anybody to work on that stuff for him, and its sad but it's the way things are today. A quality technician making $30/hour with benefits costs me more like $50-55/hr by the time you factor in payroll taxes, uniforms, health insurance, 401k, and whatever other labor burdens exist. The rest of the money that the customer pays goes to overhead, and if you are really good at what you do and your customers are awesome, and you don't have too many surprises at the end of the day there is a very small % left over to take home.

With that said, a regular transmission shop would probably charge around $600-700...but Art Carr is not a regular transmission shop. When it leaves there it will be done right!

The only thing Art was doing was quoting an AOD transmission. The install quote was from a local specialty shop.

I understand all your points and they are very valid in many instances. I also believe it holds true for a lot of "we do every automatic transmission in existence" type of shop, where no one really specializes in anything... a Walmart transmission type of shop so to speak, where installers can be "easily surprised" by something that a knowledgeable tech in a specialty shop would never begin to consider a surprise.

However, as someone pointed out earlier:

1. A '74 square with a butt load of room underneath,
2. Using a 700r4 that was factory installed in countless squares for many years,
3. Installed by a "specialty shop" that only does this type of install,

...becomes your quintessential bolt-in install. All the hardware is available off the shelf and aftermarket. There is no way a shop of this caliber should need to pad their quote to cover the "unknown" in this situation. The proof in the pudding is the fact that another local specialty shop came in at $1300 less.

So the bottom line is the shop that understood what they were doing got the work and the shop that ran the price up is still looking for a sale. This is a good lesson in how to lose business. I know some shops feel they need to take some of the easier jobs and "pad" the cost in order to compensate for some less profitable work they were doing. I know that insurance companies "spread out the risk" of paying out claims in a natural disaster, by raising everyone's rates to recoup their payouts. I don't work that way, and I am smart enough to find another shop when one tries to do that to me.

I am all about paying what's fair and reasonable. I have been on both sides of the table as a business owner and a customer. Almost exclusively, the customer determines what is fair and reasonable when they vote with their pocketbook. If I were paying a specialty shop to do an LS swap with twin turbos and a NOS setup, then I would bow to the Shop Gods and pay the tab... But a 700r4 into a generation of truck that was factory equipped with the same trans and OEM parts, well, there are no Shop Gods. Cash is King and the customer has the Kings ear baby!

Back in the day, I would R&R a Powerglide to TH400 swap under a '56 Belair by myself without a trans jack in less than 2 hours... and I am here to tell you there were no factory elements to it whatsoever!

Man I hate being old...