Bagged woes

[IndyBowtie]

Alright need some bag advise. I fully understand every person that replies will have a diff answer but that's ok.
Have a full manual system on the '48. 8 valves and wired controller in cab.
My problem is getting the truck level, side to side at ride height. I fight it every time I drive the truck.
What is the best method for ride height leveling, outside of a AccuAir sys?
Seems that having the 2 on the rear for example, plumbed individually, raise and exhaust at diff rates. Thus I Am always out of level side to side. Thought I had it perfect the other day.based off of quick look and the gauge pressures..got home and went to the back to check...one side was quite a bit higher than the other. That's a good look!
Thinking about putting a tee inline and plumb the rear together , as well as the front. But then you depend on the bags sitting at the same height at a given pressure and they probably won't!
Am I doomed to spend another grand and get the ride height controlled sys?

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by IndyBowtie

Alright need some bag advise. I fully understand every person that replies will have a diff answer but that's ok.
Have a full manual system on the '48. 8 valves and wired controller in cab.
My problem is getting the truck level, side to side at ride height. I fight it every time I drive the truck.
What is the best method for ride height leveling, outside of a AccuAir sys?
Seems that having the 2 on the rear for example, plumbed individually, raise and exhaust at diff rates. Thus I Am always out of level side to side. Thought I had it perfect the other day.based off of quick look and the gauge pressures..got home and went to the back to check...one side was quite a bit higher than the other. That's a good look!
Thinking about putting a tee inline and plumb the rear together , as well as the front. But then you depend on the bags sitting at the same height at a given pressure and they probably won't!
Am I doomed to spend another grand and get the ride height controlled sys?

the biggest misconception people have about airbag suspension is assuming that the pressures need to be equal side to side, the second biggest is they need to be driving at a lot higher pressure than they actually need.

on every truck I have ever owned with airbags there has been as little as 2 psi and as much as 10 psi difference between side to side air pressures. some of it is the extra weight on the drivers side (you, and on some trucks the gas tank was there, some trucks like s10s just have a predisposition to sit low on the drivers side research "chevy lean"). occasionally when I would stop and take on a passenger, I would need to bump up the pressure a little on that side. its never bothered me, I usually set the pressures the first time while looking in a shop window so I can see it level. then make a mental note of the pressures. I understand when people have a desire to make things match, like filling to a round dollar mount when the gas pump clicks off, or sorting their money by denomination, but the truth is less complicated than that ordered system, sometimes it takes a little more pressure on the side you sit on.

also, regarding the second misconception, spring rate increases with pressure so raising the truck higher than it needs to be exacerbates the pressure mismatch above. this is most noticeable in the rear, where the best spring rate is obtained with barely any pressure, and more pressure has more effect on side to side heights than compared to the front, which has a lot more weight to even out the ride. a good rule of thumb is that you should be lifting about 1/2 the bag stroke, which is usually 2.75 inches in the back and around 4 inches in the front (if the front is mounted to an a arm which will geometrically make a 5.5 inch stroke into roughly 8 inches of lift. if you have a solid front axle, 1/2 stroke is still 2.75") this gives the front up back down look some people like, not me, so in the rear I like to use a sleeve bag with more stroke (about 7.5 inches) so the truck sits level.

using a tee fitting is a bad idea, you will not have a way to balance out the weight differences and your truck will sit crooked forever. air will also "swap sides" in a turn and the truck will lean over further. 4 way control is best, set fronts level with rears aired out, then lift rears and set level, you will be amazed how much a difference in the front will be needed/how the rear difference will affect the level.

there are other considerations like, do you have a sway bar? sway bars act funnily when the truck is lowered, I always recommend shortening the end link a little to keep it from pulling one side more than the other. do you have shocks? shocks smooth the spring rate and are absolutely required.

[OneOffStroker]

IndyBowtie, I have some good stuff for you. I learned this stuff from my boy Robert back in Nebraska, and I use it myself. It works.

For the rear, go ahead and tee the bags together and run a sway bar. If properly installed, it will keep the side-to-side fairly even. That's the first step.

Now for the fun part: use Height Control Valves to manually do what a $$$$ accuair system does. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Haldex-90555...RXbKTh&vxp=mtr There are other versions, and even cheaper ones, but make sure you get ones with a dump solenoid...

For ultimate control, you would use one of these on each corner, but one in the rear and one for each front bag will suffice if you use a sway bar in the rear. You wouldn't actually need a sway bar if you used one valve on each rear bag, but the truck would handle better with a sway bar, especially up front.

Anyway...with these valves, you can ditch your switches and solenoids completely. Get a TW-1 valve (the old school paddle switches from semi trucks) to send a pilot signal to the Height Control Valve's dump solenoid. When actuated, this pilot signal tells the Control Valves to air up to the set height. Whenever a load is added or taken away and it moves the arm, it will add or release air to the bag to set it to the set height. If you want to dump all the bags, then flip the TW-1 to the vent position, and it removes the pilot air to the solenoids, this making the Control Valves dump all the air.

If you go this route, you will only have two heights on the truck: dumped, and whatever you set the ride height to be. This is actually a good thing, because you can get dead-nuts repeatable ride height, thus allowing for an accurate alignment so that your tires don't wear out every two months or whatever. The other neat thing is having just the one TW-1 on the dash somewhere, which looks pretty slick, and gets rid of all the wiring, switches, and electric solenoids that you have now, giving you a true 'manual' setup. Then sell the electric stuff on Craigslist or eBay and get most of the money back from buying the Control valves and TW-1.

Any questions? Hit me up.

[59chev]

Originally Posted by OneOffStroker

IndyBowtie, I have some good stuff for you. I learned this stuff from my boy Robert back in Nebraska, and I use it myself. It works.

For the rear, go ahead and tee the bags together and run a sway bar. If properly installed, it will keep the side-to-side fairly even. That's the first step.

Now for the fun part: use Height Control Valves to manually do what a $$$$ accuair system does. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Haldex-90555...RXbKTh&vxp=mtr There are other versions, and even cheaper ones, but make sure you get ones with a dump solenoid...

For ultimate control, you would use one of these on each corner, but one in the rear and one for each front bag will suffice if you use a sway bar in the rear. You wouldn't actually need a sway bar if you used one valve on each rear bag, but the truck would handle better with a sway bar, especially up front.

Anyway...with these valves, you can ditch your switches and solenoids completely. Get a TW-1 valve (the old school paddle switches from semi trucks) to send a pilot signal to the Height Control Valve's dump solenoid. When actuated, this pilot signal tells the Control Valves to air up to the set height. Whenever a load is added or taken away and it moves the arm, it will add or release air to the bag to set it to the set height. If you want to dump all the bags, then flip the TW-1 to the vent position, and it removes the pilot air to the solenoids, this making the Control Valves dump all the air.

If you go this route, you will only have two heights on the truck: dumped, and whatever you set the ride height to be. This is actually a good thing, because you can get dead-nuts repeatable ride height, thus allowing for an accurate alignment so that your tires don't wear out every two months or whatever. The other neat thing is having just the one TW-1 on the dash somewhere, which looks pretty slick, and gets rid of all the wiring, switches, and electric solenoids that you have now, giving you a true 'manual' setup. Then sell the electric stuff on Craigslist or eBay and get most of the money back from buying the Control valves and TW-1.

Any questions? Hit me up.

OneOffStroker, Thanks for posting this. I am still in the planning stages for my air ride set up and I am on an on a tight budget. I am running a camaro clip in the front and I plan on a parellel 4 link in the rear with sleeve bags. Do you happen to have a plumbing diagram for this set up? The valves are not electric all?

[joedoh]

sounds like a neat solution, has anyone done this on a bagged truck (not a semi)

back when air suspension was really new there wasnt a lot of valve choices and everyone wanted a super fast dump. I actually bought a couple air brake dump valves and used them to dump the system extremely fast, but the system was very complex, the pilot air on the backside of the valve had to be rigidly maintained because any fluctuation would cause the dump to open, so it ended up taking two tanks, one for bag pressure and one connected with a check valve to maintain pilot air, and 8 solenoids, plus the air brake manifolds, and plumbing. I guess my question would be, do you need this pilot air system with these level controllers?

[MiraclePieCo]

Simplify your system. Eight valves makes it complex to manage without computerized ride control. Do you have a specific need to have every wheel independently adjustable? If not, just T the left/right sides and cut back to front/rear controls. If you get a front/rear imbalance it doesn't look or handle nearly as bad as a left/right imbalance.

[OneOffStroker]

Originally Posted by 59chev

OneOffStroker, Thanks for posting this. I am still in the planning stages for my air ride set up and I am on an on a tight budget. I am running a camaro clip in the front and I plan on a parellel 4 link in the rear with sleeve bags. Do you happen to have a plumbing diagram for this set up? The valves are not electric all?

I don't have a diagram, but the system is super easy to plumb. The Valves have no electric connections, so that's easy. They have three or four ports on them, and most are Push To Connect (PTC), which eliminates a lot of expensive brass fittings from the whole system.

1) From your air tank, run lines directly to the supply port on each valve.
2) From each valve, run a line to the bag(s) that it will feed.
3) Run a line from the tank to the supply side of the TW-1. (You can even run multiple TW-1 switches, if you want control over front & rear separately.)
4) From the TW-1 Feed port, run lines to the dump solenoids on the Control valves.
5) OPTIONAL - If you feel like you must know the pressures of the bags, then you will need to add tees at each bag and plumb that back to gauges. With ride height control, pressures are basically irrelevant, because it will always go to the ride height that you set it for. Like in my Hilux, with nothing in the bed, the pressure is about 15 psi. With my two race bikes, it's about 30 psi. When I hauled 1200lbs of scrap to recycle, it was about 55 psi. But it rode smooth as silk at every PSI, and had the same ride height each time.

That's it. Easy ride control. Most difficult part is mounting the valves in a location near the A-arm so that you can link the leveling arm to the suspension components, but even that is less difficult than wiring a whole electric setup.

Originally Posted by joedoh

sounds like a neat solution, has anyone done this on a bagged truck (not a semi)

My buddy Rob did this to his '65 C10, and his '29 Model A Rat Rod. I saw his setups and loved the simplicity, so I adopted it for my '89 Hilux. I just have it on the rear of my Hilux, (one valve, teed bags, sway bar) so that when I haul stuff like multiple race bakes, I just put them in the back and it maintains the level that keeps stuff from rubbing or bottoming out. I'll be using them for my '51 Ford Rat Truck as well, and probably a few other builds in the future.

These valves are reliable, as every semi on the road uses them for their 5th wheels as well as the cabin ride control. Also, most mass transit buses use them. They are the controls for the 'kneeling' that buses do when they drop on one side to pick up people from the curb. down with the flick of a switch, and back to ride height by flipping it back.

[59chev]

Sorry for my ignorance, I am new to air ride setups.

When the dump valves dump the air, does it dump the air in the entire system or only the air in the bags?

Are the dump valves normally open or normally closed? Is the TW-1 switch supplying air to cause it to dump or remove air to tell the valve to dump?

[jackson]

whhheeewhhuuu. ill stick to my static

[joedoh]

sounds promising! do you have any pictures of the setup, and video of it operating?

Originally Posted by MiraclePieCo

just T the left/right sides and cut back to front/rear controls. If you get a front/rear imbalance it doesn't look or handle nearly as bad as a left/right imbalance.

teeing the front is not a good idea, the air swap in turns is horrible even with a sway bar because of all the weight involved. teeing the back is possible, plenty of 6 valve setups out there, but air trading sides in the rear is still a problem. not to mention that teeing the fronts and backs will not solve his original problem, the lean of the truck when the front pressures match

[CMACDONALD1]

All I can say is that I have had both. I first went with a home made if you will air management system with gauges and 4 corner adjustment. I was constantly checking to see if I was level and would bottom the truck out all the time. I cant remember what I spent originally but it was not supper cheap. I decided to switch to accuair and loved it. You hit the key goes right to a preset ride height or hit number 1 for cruise in or show and hit 3 if you want a bit more clearance and no worries. I will say that I did roll over a set of rail way tracks and broke a sensor and the bag dumped at highway speed ( not fun) but other than that I would personally say to spend a bit more money and get a proper air management system. Even though I did break a sensor you can bypass the ride level sensors and adjust each air bag individually and that is how I got home that day. This is my experience for whatever that is worth.

[OneOffStroker]

Originally Posted by 59chev

Sorry for my ignorance, I am new to air ride setups.

When the dump valves dump the air, does it dump the air in the entire system or only the air in the bags?

Are the dump valves normally open or normally closed? Is the TW-1 switch supplying air to cause it to dump or remove air to tell the valve to dump?

It's cool man, even people that have experience with bag setups may have a hard time wrapping their heads around this because it's so far from the norm.

Anyway, the dump valves only dump the bags that the valve is plumbed to. The air in the system tanks stays in the tanks.

As far as normally open or normally closed, I believe they make them both ways, you just need to order what works for your setup. Mine are normally open, and when you send air to them via the TW-1, they close. When you flip the TW-1, it vents and the dump opens, dumping the air from the valves.

Hope this helps a little.

[1project2many]

Also, most mass transit buses use them. They are the controls for the 'kneeling' that buses do when they drop on one side to pick up people from the curb. down with the flick of a switch, and back to ride height by flipping it back.

Unfortunately buses, like autos, seem to be moving toward electronic controls for air suspension and kneel control. They are not as reliable in this area.

If not, just T the left/right sides and cut back to front/rear controls. If you get a front/rear imbalance it doesn't look or handle nearly as bad as a left/right imbalance.

Are you saying the front and rear on a side should be Teed? What about weight transfer during fast or panic stops? If the rear wheels lock you could find the back of the truck at your side.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by 1project2many

Are you saying the front and rear on a side should be Teed? What about weight transfer during fast or panic stops? If the rear wheels lock you could find the back of the truck at your side.

that what I thought he was saying at first too, but the pressure differences between front and rear are so big there is no way that would work. the front usually takes 60-70 psi and the rear 15-20 psi, putting 60-70 psi in the rear bag is a sure way to ride terrible.

[tmoble]

Do bagged trucks usually also have shocks? or are the bags self damping?

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by tmoble

Do bagged trucks usually also have shocks? or are the bags self damping?

you always need shocks with airbags. air springs do not have any dampening, they oscillate like coil springs. I cant count how many times I have heard guys say "rides fine without bags" and that may be true, but if you take a video of a truck driving with bags and without shocks you will see the wheel bouncing and skittering around, which stretches the tread and eventually ruins the tire.


ok, oneoffstroker, I need to see some pictures of this ride height setup. every bit of research into leveling systems I see shows it requires two leveling valves per wheel (or two per axle if you are teed), two solenoid valves per wheel (or axle) and a pressure switch added to each wheel (or axle). the only way I see it working with one leveling valve and two solenoids per wheel (I havent seen how it works with only one solenoid yet because when I do a truth table the tank will exhaust through the dump valve if you only have one solenoid). I even looked at kneeling bus system diagrams and they are even more complex.

please, can you show us a couple pictures of your setup for clarity? it sounds promising!

[59chev]

Following..

Alot of us are intregued by this manual - automatic leveling option.

As I understand it, this would only work with the height control valves that have an integrated dump valve. When the dump valve is activated, it dumps the air in the bags and closes the intake valve at the same time. When the dump valve is closed, the height control valve returns to normal mode and re-inflates the bags until the truck comes back up to ride height.

[47 Fasttoys]

Alright I'll through my 2 cents in here. Why use solenoids at all? There are manual valve blocks out there now that are built just for automotive air ride systems. No electrical connections except for the lights on the gauges. 1 air input port, 1 exhaust port, 4 output ports and 4 gauge ports. 1 hose to each bag, 1 to each gauge port, 1 hose from air tank. I use the Little Larry's 4 play and am very happy with it. As far as speed is concerned all the valves are variable flow so the more you push the faster you go. With solenoids you have 2 conditions; open or closed, if you want to adjust speed you also need to install an adjustable flow control, set it and that's the speed you have. With variable manual valves you can creep or slam its up to your mood. Second picture is air tank with check valve, quick disconnect. It also has a water separator and engine driven compressor. The lights and switchs are for other functions.
Rob

[e015475]

I took a stab at drawing a schematic of what the OP described. Would appreciate any feedback from the OP as to its correctness-


When there's air pressure supplied from the tank to the pilot air port on the height control valve, the height control valve will function to regulate the height of the airbag (the red line on the schematic is the pilot/dump air controlled by the TW-1 valve)

If the pilot air is removed, the height control valve dumps the air out of the airbag.

Is this correct?

[e015475]

47 Fast Toys

I like the Little Larry approach too.

But what I'm trying to avoid is to have to frinkle with the air pressure all the time to keep the stance of the truck where I want it.

The OPs description of the height control valve wouldn't have any solenoids either, and would be a 'set it and forget it' system, with the option to dump the airbags with the TW1.

But with the OPs system, the only way you can change ride height is to adjust the linkage to the height valves, which is ok with me. Once i get it set to a height I like, I'd likely just leave it there.

[47 Fasttoys]

Sounds like a good system. I do adjust mine a little but I also load my truck on a regular basis as I pull a camper or boat and load all kinds of junk on the back so in my case I need the ability to adjust. My only question would be with the ride height dump valves do you end up with alot of compressor cycling because the valves are making regular adjustments? by this I mean what happens when you go into a long sweeping corner? The more I think about it with this system I would not have to adgust for load it would do it for me, correct?
Rob

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by e015475

I took a stab at drawing a schematic of what the OP described. Would appreciate any feedback from the OP as to its correctness-


When there's air pressure supplied from the tank to the pilot air port on the height control valve, the height control valve will function to regulate the height of the airbag (the red line on the schematic is the pilot/dump air controlled by the TW-1 valve)

If the pilot air is removed, the height control valve dumps the air out of the airbag.

Is this correct?

your thinking is correct as far as I know, except the condition I considered was there has to be some type of solenoid on the inlet (to let tank pressure into the valve) otherwise when you "open" the dump valve it will just continue to dump tank pressure until the tank is empty.

I quoted "open", because the state when the truck is parked and laid out will require the dump valve to be open, which means the the dump valve will either have to be energized while parked, creating a battery drain, or will have to be a normally open valve (NO, typically solenoid valves are NC normally closed). so you will energize the dump valve to closed when you want to move, and de-energize it to dump.

I think for failsafe operation with a NO dump valve, (power loss on the highway for example) you should probably put in a pilot air supply bubble with a check valve/pressure switch setup. I think this is what comprises the complexity in a bus system, which have individual electric valves per corner. most air ride systems with electric valves include check valves already for safety, if you blew a supply line or lost tank pressure the valves can only hold against a higher pressure on the back side and would constantly bleed down.


47fast, I LOVE little larry valves. I had them in the 65, and I have a collection of MIC manual valve plates on the shelf from years gone by. manual valves are great, sometimes I dont even run gauges, for the simplicity.

[mongocanfly]

Joedoh..on the "typically solenoid valves being NC"...at work we have them both normally open and normally closed...and we have thousands of sv's...in some of our processes its a saftey thing as to which one we use..

[joedoh]

sorry, I meant the typical airbag solenoids available for sale. I didnt doubt someone made a NO, just it would take a bit of finding to get a 12VDC NO solenoid in the size you needed.

[mongocanfly]

Gotcha..Im following along on yalls airbag conversations..it sounds like they can be anywhere from complicated to simple..I know a lot of our solenoids at work are low voltage though but I'm not that familiar with the airbag systems and setups..