TKO 600 swap

[cse]

First post here. I’ve been lurking for a while and have enjoyed the builds and tech info. I recently picked up 1974 SWB C10 454/T400, my third square in the last 20 years. I’m planning to swap the Turbo 400 for a TKO 600. I’ve talked to American Powertrain and Hurst Drivelines and it seems like the available kits are pretty good. I have two areas I need to decide on what direction to go and was hoping to draw on some of the experience here.

First is the clutch pedal. It seems like three options here – OEM mechanical, OEM hydraulic and aftermarket hydraulic. I’m pretty sure I want to go hydraulic over mechanical, does the Wilwood offer any advantage over the OEM hydraulic? Has anyone hung one of the Wilwood Swing Mount pedal systems on a stock C10 firewall?

The second area of concern is the floor. I’ve read the T400/BB trucks had a high enough tunnel to work with the TKO, but have been unable to confirm this and mine looks low. I’m assuming I do need to raise the tunnel by using a factory C10 4spd high tunnel or making one. Is the OEM C10 high tunnel long enough or does there need to also be a raised area behind the high hump to clear the driveshaft? Will a K10 4sp high hump work?

This is my daily driver, so I’m hoping to get everything in order before tearing the truck down to avoid excessive down time.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Jim

[bluex]

I used a manual set of stock pedals to do mine. I just saw that American power train might have a squarebody kit out soon. Here is a link to my install, I used a NV3500 transmission but my hydraulic hookups might help you out or give you ideas on which direction to go.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=714465

[cse]

Originally Posted by bluex

I used a manual set of stock pedals to do mine. I just saw that American power train might have a squarebody kit out soon. Here is a link to my install, I used a NV3500 transmission but my hydraulic hookups might help you out or give you ideas on which direction to go.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=714465

Hey Paul,

Thanks for putting the effort into detailing your swap and sharing. Great info on using a Z bar linkage for a hydraulic system. I do plan to use the OEM mechanical speedo, so I need to look at available firewall area in that location or rerouting the speedo cable.

Jim

[bluex]

The firewall is pretty cluttered in that area for sure. You could put the speedo cable through wherever you want really. You could mount the master lower but the lower on the pedal you go the worse the ratio is and that makes the pedal harder to push. You could also use a stock style master instead thats mounted on an angle but then you wind up having to do funky stuff with the lines and unions and stuff.

[MalibuSSwagon]

I have a TKO600 and am going to install it in my 86 C10 this coming winter. For me it's going to be easy since my truck is already manual with factory hydraulic linkage, so I'm just going to install it on the factory bellhousing. You could do the same thing too, with a factory bellhousing and linkage either manual or hydro. You will likely need a bellhousing adapter ring if you use a truck bell, the TKO input retainer is the smaller GM car size. Bonus with the TKO is the mechanical speedo takeoff which I plan on using to simply things. I have a high hump floor already, lucky for you you have an early truck with the bolt on floor humps. My rough measurements indicate I will have plenty of room however.

[Tom]

I've always preffered the mechanical clutchs to the hydro's myself.

[mikentosh]

We've done two hydraulic swaps to use TR6060/T56 transmissions. First one was done by customizing a factory mechanical pedal setup, and second was using the wilwood pedal box. Both used Wilwood clutch M/C. The key to the Wilwood units is to make sure the piston is completely centered throughout the pedal swing, otherwise it scores the wall and you will have issues. With some fabrication we were able to achieve this on the factory pedal setup (after learning with two clutch M/Cs), and it has a nice factory look.

The pedal box is a much more involved process and I recommend starting with a stripped out cab so you can measure and fabricate without interruptions. We reinforced the firewall but still had movement of the pedals under braking, so we have since ran reinforcement stringers up to the factory steering column. It was not an easy job. Also you will find the pedals sit pretty high up and close so it isn't a super comfortable driving position.

[cse]

Thanks for all the replies. I've got a line on a local high hump and pedal assembly out of a 77. The plan right now will be to run oem pedals with a Wilwood master. I will post up some pictures as I get in to it.

@Mikentosh - Thanks for the tip on making the Wilwood master survive. I really enjoyed both the Cannonball and Sierra Grande builds. Both awesome trucks. There is a good picture of the Sierra Grande firewall showing the brake and clutch master. I noticed that the factory booster is gone at that point. Was the booster removed to make room for the clutch master, or was the plan to run without a booster from the beginning? No booster on a pro-touring track truck goes without saying, but not sure about my DD, city truck.

Jim

[mikentosh]

Originally Posted by cse

Thanks for all the replies. I've got a line on a local high hump and pedal assembly out of a 77. The plan right now will be to run oem pedals with a Wilwood master. I will post up some pictures as I get in to it.

@Mikentosh - Thanks for the tip on making the Wilwood master survive. I really enjoyed both the Cannonball and Sierra Grande builds. Both awesome trucks. There is a good picture of the Sierra Grande firewall showing the brake and clutch master. I noticed that the factory booster is gone at that point. Was the booster removed to make room for the clutch master, or was the plan to run without a booster from the beginning? No booster on a pro-touring track truck goes without saying, but not sure about my DD, city truck.

Jim

My original plans was to run a hydroboost setup, but enough time on lateral-g convinced me to run a pure manual setup. And to be honest if you have the proper pedal ratio then a manual setup can be pretty easy to drive. I don't really have to adjust that much jumping between cars, though I have quite the spread from manual brakes on the truck, to a big brake setup on the M3, to regenerative braking on my daily driver electric car.

The Sierra Grande is now using a factory manual brake M/C and it's actually a light, smooth pedal stroke. On a heavier duty truck I would still consider running a hydroboost setup.
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[cse]

Not exactly lighting the world on fire with the speed of this project, but I did reach a minor milestone this past weekend.

When I came across a complete and refurbished 1985 hydraulic pedal set from Jeff at AZ Parts Locators (1774btcrew on here), it finalized my decision on which direction to go with the pedal conversion.



I dug up this picture that’s been floating around with dimensions for the master cylinder/brace strut holes in the firewall. Don’t know who the original author was, but thanks to them. Once the manual pedal assembly was installed, I made a template, made all the measurements and positioned the support struts to make sure all three agreed on the location before drilling the firewall.



The truck originally had dual tanks, but they were removed by the PO. The tanks were gone, but all of the original wiring was still there. Unfortunately the grommet/hole in the firewall for the wiring was right in the mount area. Ironically the hole diameter was 1.125” and the master cylinder fit through it perfectly, but the location was off by about and 1”. I figured out a way to maintain the original wiring without making a new hole, but unfortunately I had to make a plug and weld up the original hole.



Almost done. The last easy step was to bolt on the reservoir with the factory bracket that uses two of the wiper motor mount bolts. Not quite so fast, this is when I realized the wiper motor body shaped had changed between 1974 and 1985 and the bracket wouldn’t fit. In hindsight, shouldn’t have been a surprise. Worked out okay, because I found a spot on the firewall between the wiper motor and hood hinge that would accept the factory bracket.

Maybe I’ll actually have the tranny in before the original post is a year old……maybe.

Jim

[mikentosh]

Nicely done!

After a bunch more miles in both our factory pedal conversion truck and the other with the Wilwood pedal box, I actually much prefer the factory pedal conversion for leg comfort on anything beyond a 20 min drive. I think you'll really like the final product 😊

[cse]

Originally Posted by mikentosh

Nicely done!

After a bunch more miles in both our factory pedal conversion truck and the other with the Wilwood pedal box, I actually much prefer the factory pedal conversion for leg comfort on anything beyond a 20 min drive. I think you'll really like the final product 😊

@mikentosh

Thanks for the continuing feedback. I appreciate it.

What have you done for the slave on your trucks? My plan is to use a hydraulic TO bearing and skip the slave, but I haven't fully committed.

I have decided to go with the T56 Magnum instead of the TKO 600.

[mikentosh]

Good choice on the T56...lots of support for all generations of that trans in the forums.

We went with factory style hydraulic throwouts on the trucks. Both of them are running the TR6060 (OEM) version of the T56 so I'm not positive on bell housing lengths between TR6060 and T56 -- You might have to do some shimming if you go these routes:

Blue Truck - This is basically a stock 5th gen Camaro motor/trans so its got factory clutch and TOB in it.

Cannonball - With the increased power of the built LS motor, I went with a Lingenfelter kit which adapts the twin disc Sachs clutch from the ZR1 Corvette to a standard LS 6-bolt crank via a custom flywheel. This also comes with the ZR1 hydraulic throwout...which required some adaptation of the fluid hardlines coming out of it 😊. This clutch is actually quite amazing considering how much abuse we put it through while trying to get the motor properly tuned.

[HunterRotten]

My truck hasn't been together for awhile but with the TKO 500 we cut a bracket out of some carbon fiber we had laying around to mount the hydraulic clutch reservoir off of the brake master cylinder/brake booster.

We also bought a hydraulic clutch retrofit kit from a company called Novak that specializes in using GM engines and transmissions in Jeeps. My dad says he wanted an external slave cylinder so it would be easy to diagnose and access while being affordable.

[cse]

Thanks for the replies guys. Cool stuff on that Novak site.

Hopefully it won't be as long before my next update. Having the clutch pedal hanging there every time I drive it should help keep me motivated.

[cse]

Continuing my glacial pace for this project.

UPS Santa brought the close ratio T56 Magnum last week. I had a good time shifting it in the box. With a few spare hours this weekend, I was able to pull the Turbo 400, cooler and shift linkage. Now on to figuring out the cross-member and floor.

Jim

[Bobzilla75]

Complete kit or just the trans itself? I'm considering the tko, using my stock bellhousing and clutch linkage. I'll have to correct the shifter location which means pulling glued down carpet.

[cse]

I went with a kit from Silver Sport Transmissions. Because I was swapping from an auto, I didn't have anything to work with and figured a kit would be easier.
I'm using an OEM hydraulic pedal assembly from an 87.

If you already have a manual in the truck, a kit probably wouldn't be the best path.

Agreed, not looking forward to pulling up the carpet. My truck has the low tunnel, so I'm thinking I will need to replace the carpet when I'm done.

[GRADYS Performance]

Driveshaft tunnel should be fine, Centerline of transmission and driveshaft will not change with the new transmission.

[cse]

Originally Posted by GRADYS Performance

Driveshaft tunnel should be fine, Centerline of transmission and driveshaft will not change with the new transmission.

Thanks Gradys Performance for the info. I hope to get it mounted this weekend. After the bell housing it seems like the T56 is taller than the TH400. It would be really nice if it all cleared the stock floor.

[cse]

Made some progress this weekend. Got the bellhousing mounted and missed the concentricity TIR by .002”. Offset pins are on order and I’ll take another shot at getting the T56 and crank lined up.

While waiting for the offset pins, I put the tranny in to check floor clearance and found there wasn’t any. I ended up having to open up past the high hump to clear the rear shifter box. I may end up having to go even further back once the drive shaft is in. Right now I’m sitting at 4 degrees down at the tail-shaft. The good news is it looks like the stock TH400 cross-member is going to work with only a little modification.

[mikentosh]

I'm surprised that it doesn't fit with the high hump. Here's a picture I found of mine for reference:



You can see we added a small boxed location aft of the hump to account for the driveshaft. The TR6060 only has one shifter location (the forward one that is at the location of the yellow tape on yours) and it ended up working well with where it came through the floor.

[mikentosh]

Originally Posted by mikentosh

I'm surprised that it doesn't fit with the high hump. Here's a picture I found of mine for reference:

After looking again at your picture I remember that the high hump we used was out of a newer square (probably late 80's). Also just found a picture of what we did in the blue truck with an older high hump:

[mongocanfly]

Cse..what are you gonna do about the shifter location?

Mikentosh..what did you do on your shifter location? Yours looks like its been moved forward..

Asking because I've got a 6060 and am considering wether to do a internal or external shifter relocation..with internal I'm concerned with the shifter throw being to wide with a longer stick..and the external corrects for the ratio but will eat up tunnel space..I need my shifter in approximate location of old floor shifter..between seat front and firewall..

[cse]

@mikentosh - Thanks for posting up your two floor pictures. Your blue truck looks to have the same high hump I have. I'm going to have to do some boxing or mini-tunnel behind the bolt in hump like you did. I'm waiting to get the driveshaft in to determine exactly how much. I was hoping to stop cutting where I did, but I'm already at 4 degrees down on the tailshaft and I don't think I will have enough clearance for the driveshaft as the rear axle travels. I'd like to make it all bolt in, but I'm concerned it may not be as rigid as welding it in. Are the humps in the blue truck and Cannonball bolt-in or are they welded? Also good information on the forward shifter position working well in your trucks. I haven't put the seat back in, but just eye-balling it looks like it's going to work.

@mongocanfly - I'm planning to use the furthest forward of the three shifter positions on the T56 (where the yellow tape is at in my picture). Currently I'm looking at a 10" - 30 degree shifter, but I plan to do drive it with some mock-ups before I commit (really like the Bowler). I originally planned to use a 6060, but changed to a T56 Magnum after I started the thread and I'm not smart enough to figure out how to change the thread title.