47-55.1 extended a-arms (S10) conversion

[8man]

I was going through Skymangs write up again, for the...I don't know how many times. Anyway I got to a post where someone asked about "extended a-arms" and the answer was that most people don't want to spend the money. So that got me to wondering, what about extended a-arms?

I found a site that does make them, but they are pricey. However, they only do them for bags or coil overs. Since I'm not bagging the truck, I was wondering about coil overs.

Would coil overs offer any real advantage for a daily driver? I can't see where that would be the case, but maybe someone is running them and can confirm or correct.

Also, do the 2" spcers change anything in the front end geometry? Is there any thing that needs to be done when using them?

Thanks.

[joedoh]

I used them on my 65, had them extended more than he normally does and paid through the nose for them. I will tell you the guy who runs the ordering is a protuberance on a good day and worse on a bad day. but as your only option with extended arms he could roll himself in poop and you would still be ordering. I needed other stuff, like extended tie rod sleeves from UMI, extended brake lines (fullsize chevy truck of the same years fit). for shocks I used jeep wrangler take offs, brand new and were 23 inches long. you need to remake the upper shock mount to use something like that.

the parts fit well, I didnt understand some of the finer details and my questions were rebuffed with an implied "dumbass" at the end of every sentence. since my first experience I have taken to only looking for these parts from abandoned projects, and I have bought a second set of uppers. for the lowers I obtained a new set of long travel arms that are extended the same amount as the uppers. I think they came from chassis tech.

for the cost, it was somewhat worth it on my 65, because I was bagging it on 22s and needed the extra travel of the spherical upper balljoint. for a truck without bags.. I would say just use spacers. if you plan to lower it (tuck tire a little) you will only need a 1-1.5 inch spacer on a 7 inch wide wheel because without bags, you will not turn. the kit was over $1000 back then, and I spent another 4-500 on ancillary parts.

its important to say that the coilover kit will need to be higher spring rate, because the longer arm increases the leverage and effective weight seen by the spring.

[mr48chev]

The main thing 2 inch spacers are going to do is put more stress on your wheel bearings. The same way a deep reverse wheel would.

If you go to spacers spend the money and buy the good US made Billet ones like US wheel adapters sells https://www.uswheeladapters.com/

[dsraven]

before you spend money on wheels spacers, like 3" wide, do some research on the effects on the steering geometry. look at scrub radius changes and know the tire size and wheel offset before you start. this is going to put the scrub radius waay outta whack and that is one thing that will make your truck steer like crap and also wear stuff out faster. think of it like this.
scrub radius is (simplified) the difference between an imaginary line drawn through the upper and lower ball joint center line and another imaginary line drawn through the centerline of your tire. where they intersect at the ground under the tire is called scrub radius. since the upper control arm is shorter the upper ball joint is not directly above the lower so that line will be at an angle not straight up and down (called steering axis inclination). the reason this is done is so that the tire doesn't move in an arc when the steering is turned. next draw a line that goes straight up and down from your wheel mounting surface. next mark the diameter of the tire being used and find out what you wheel has for offset and draw a line showing that. these lines should intersect at roughly the same place where the tire sits on the road surface (diameter of the tire) and when the wheel is turned the tire will rotate on it's center point of width. of course there are reasons to have a positive or negative scrub radius but there are limits to how much there should be. now take that same scenario and add the 3" wheel spacer between the wheel and the mounting surface. you will see that the scrub radius is waaay outta whack. the other thing that happens with wheel spacers is when the wheels are turned the tire will now move in an arc instead of on it's centerline of the tread width (roughly, and that is what the steering axis inclination was trying to get away from in the first place. well that and because this angle automatically wants the wheels to go straight down the road when the hands are taken off the steering wheel). if the suspension is set up to have zero scrub radius then the car will likely be a little skittish when the brakes are applied or the wheels are turned. this is because, when turning, the treads on the outside of the tire centerline are actually turning faster than the treads on the inside of the tire centerline so the tire can be a little squishy because those 2 forces are sort of fighting each other. if there is positive or negative scrub radius there will be more tread on one side or the other of the tread centerline so that side of the tire will overcome the other side that has less skin in the game. it makes sense then that a wheel with positive offset would want to toe out because there is more tire on the outside of the centerline and the opposite for a wheel with negative offset. a large wheel spacer will act like a lever to exaggerate the forces transferred to the wheel bearings and other steering parts. do a little research to find out more.here are a few links to get you started.
with longer upper and lower control arms, and matching tie rod end extensions, these angles should stay within their engineered limits like a stock vehicle would.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUDMEd1bMZI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWijfooeSyU

https://www.4wd.com/article/content....y-Scrub-Radius

http://www.car-engineer.com/suspensi...icle-behavior/

[dsraven]

here is another interesting link for you that will give you your scrub radius for different offsets
https://www.wheel-size.com/calc/

[8man]

Guys, I really appreciate the responses.

Joe, I was looking at MMW for the extension pieces. Is that who you were talking about being so "helpful"? I saw you mentioned Chassis Tech for some parts, do they do complete upper and lower arms?

Mr48, what about the "more stress on the wheel bearings"? That seems to be a problem that the extended arms would avoid. Also, wouldn't the arms also address any steering geometry issues. The site you linked shows spacers for S10 use in years 2002-2004. I'm pretty sure those work for any year S10. They are only a little pricier than the ones on eBay, but if I go that way I want them to be safe, so thanks.

Raven, I have not had time to study and try to understand everything in your response, that is a lot of information for a neophyte to sort through. I will go through everything and all of the attachments as well before I do something. This is why I'm asking about extended arms. I think that will address "scrub radius" and stress on bearings, etc.

So I'm thinking of using 15 x 8 wheels with 225's up front and 255's in back. If I go with the 2" drop spindles, I have a couple of questions.

1. Using 2" spacers up front as suggested, they put more stress on the bearings and they change the geometry some, but are there other issues with using them? It sounds like the geometry of the front tires will be a little "off" causing some of the problems outlined in Raven's response. Is this true, or do they work just fine for a truck destined to be driven like a daily driver, no racing or motorcross.

2. If I am lowering the truck with 2" drop spindles, does a coil over suspension offer a handling upgrade? In looking at the coil over, it appears I can get the higher rate springs that are also adjustable so I can raise or lower the front end using the spring for fine tuning. This would seem to offer the best of both worlds, proper scrub radius and the ability to adjust the front end to what I want, but it is expensive.

So before I break the bank doing it, I would like to know if it would be worth it, or if I'm just overthinking this issue since I don't have personal experience to draw on.

Thanks again.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by 8man

Guys, I really appreciate the responses.

Joe, I was looking at MMW for the extension pieces. Is that who you were talking about being so "helpful"? I saw you mentioned Chassis Tech for some parts, do they do complete upper and lower arms?

yep MMW is it when looking for extended arms. unless you are bagging on big wheels you wont need it. Chassis tech makes a long travel kit for lifting, so the lower arms are 2.5 inches longer and they are used with a tall spindle and the stock upper I think. I didnt really research, the arms came to me as new and just the arms. the balljoint angle needs to be lessened because its made for a lifted truck, something I can do easily but others may not.

I dont want you to think I am diminishing anyones concerns or your ideas so please read the rest of this with the sarcastic tone I intend it to have.

regarding extra load on the bearings with spacers, its going to be well within the design limits of the bearings. even pulling 0.5G in a corner will be astronomically higher torque on the bearings than a 3 inch spacer. for scrub radius, remember that having scrub at the center of the tread doesnt mean that the tires are going to bind with spacers. nothing is inhibiting the wheels from rotating slightly if they are moving in a very shallow arc, unless you are hard on the brakes. to use an internet idiom, I have used 2.5" spacers and "havent had a single problem" (thats the idiom, from an internet idiot, me) with bearings or scrub. everything turned fine, forward and sideways.

regarding better handling, before you spend 2-3k upgrading your S10 chassis with extended arms and coilovers and everything else for minimal gain, decide what you really are expecting. are you going to autocross the truck? you could probably buy a used miata for less than the upgrade and satisfy your corner cravings. if you are expecting max performance, there was a 10k chassis talked about recently on these forums that won some national road course championship (with an AD on it) that would be a better use of your money. otherwise, replacing all the S10 stock suspension components and brakes is going to be a HUGE improvement over the stock AD capability.

[joedoh]

well, dont worry about whats next if you havent done whats first. spacers are literally the last thing in the world you need to buy or install. get your suspension installed, get weight on wheels, get sheetmtal installed, get the wheels and tires you are using installed. then measure. it will be very apparent what spacer you need. this isnt a slot a into tab b kind of build, lots of things can affect your choices.

[8man]

You are right. But when I can't get in the shop, but I can access the internet...well, I start to think, and that leads down a rabbit hole.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by 8man

You are right. But when I can't get in the shop, but I can access the internet...well, I start to think, and that leads down a rabbit hole.

racers call that "bench racing". the problem with bench racing though is that you can encounter a small problem without an apparent solution and it causes you to scrap the whole project. when in reality the small problem would have been easily solved when encountered in the middle of doing the work.

this happens a lot especially to guys who buy ALL the parts for their project up front and have that giant pile of parts to stare at and "all they have to do is put it all together", they pull apart the project because disassembly is easy, and with the first stuck bolt suddenly its work and they sell the whole thing. if they had encountered the stuck bolt without that pile of new parts they would have just drilled it out and gone on, but with that pile of parts mocking them they get discouraged. starting is easy, finishing is hard; even if you have all the tools and materials. take the problems as they come instead of trying to crystal ball them months in advance and you will be happier and more motivated.

[8man]

Thanks Joe, that is kind of like Zen for the builder. I like it!

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by joedoh

well, dont worry about whats next if you havent done whats first. spacers are literally the last thing in the world you need to buy or install. get your suspension installed, get weight on wheels, get sheetmtal installed, get the wheels and tires you are using installed. then measure. it will be very apparent what spacer you need. this isnt a slot a into tab b kind of build, lots of things can affect your choices.

Possibly the best advice Joe has ever put out to anyone. Don't make changes until you are positive that you need to make changes. Yes it may mean taking a weekend to pull the stock stuff off and put the other pieces on after the truck has been driven but that is just unbolt and bolt back on and standard front end work procedure.
It might mean a couple of days down time after you have it together but it may also mean that you don't have to spend several hundred $$ on the process that can go on something else you wife wants for the truck.

The wheel bearing wear thing with deep reverse wheels or spacers is an issue you just deal with and check and service the wheel bearings a bit more often than you might if you don't have one or the other. I lost track of the guys who told me that my wheel bearings would go bad because I ran chrome reverse wheels on my rigs but I always service my wheel bearings on schedule and never seem to have a problem. It's the rigs I bought and didn't service the bearings on right away that I had trouble with reverse wheel or not.

[tmoble]

consider using a 2nd gen camaro/firebird front subframe. You won't need an wheel spacers there.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by tmoble

consider using a 2nd gen camaro/firebird front subframe. You won't need an wheel spacers there.

or get the right offset wheels. I dont have any spacers on my current truck (20x8 with 4" backspace, works out to a -13 offset front, 20x9 with 3.5 backspace rear) using dsravens link my front scrub is "almost no difference" and the wheels look just right. I didnt use them on the last GMC I did either, I did use them on the last 49 though because the wheels I ordered did not come in the right offset, so essentially I was changing them back to stock scrub.


he also started/looked at the truck with a camaro (firebird) front clipped frame.

[mr48chev]

I think he is in too deep for that but his exasperating with this shows that "going cheap" with an S-10 frame often isn't as cheap as the guys who push going that way claim.

[65blackfleetside]

I was just getting ready to post on this subject-Glad someone else had the same questions.
On my current 1951' build I have 2" drop spindles. No bags. On an S-10 frame and running 2" billet spacers up front. Ford 8.8 in the rear. I have the truck all together and LS up and running but have not completed the maiden voyage yet. I (I am bogged down with installing power windows power locks, Door alignment etc )
Joedoh I like the idea of just buying the correct offset for the wheels up front. Seems to be a lot less painful than rebuilding A arms etc. I have no current experience with these billet spacers but others on here have no complaints. I also worried about stressing these bearing out. For future resale it would be best to eliminate the spacers for the average buyer that knows nothing about this subject. I will run these spacers until I save up for some new wheels.

Joedoh: I like the new truck in your profile. Is that a new build?

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by 65blackfleetside

Joedoh: I like the new truck in your profile. Is that a new build?

which one? the red one in my avatar is my current build, link below, my 6th s10 swap. the green one on my profile page is from 2016.