Need advice about LS3 DRY swap

[Jonny Hotnuts]

I am actively shopping (very active) for an LS3. I want to use the LS3 because of the aluminum block (100lbs weight savings) and in particular the LS3 with factory dry sump.



Now...before anyone says "search plenty of info" I did and am not really finding the info I need.

My questions:

70 c10 short. 3 speed column (converted to floor)

-Will the LS3 dry sump pan work?
-Any other issues using the dry sump motor?
-I read something about the LS3 reluctor wheel. WTF is the problem with it and what do I need to do about it?
-(this one is important)Is there anything I should really be looking for regarding 'make sure its included with the engine?' For instance do I need to insist it has something critical to the LS3 dry like the peddle, tank-hoses, ecu, harness or other thing important to the LS3/LS3 Dry?
-Is there a specific transmission I should be looking for that works 'better' with the LS3 in the c10? I am not adverse to an automatic or manual.
-Anything I should be looking for to say away from like: "dont get the flex fuel option" or "dont get the 64 bit ecu" or "stay away from blocks with 'x'' in the serial or other things like that?
-Will the LS3 dry headers work or will I need to get aftermarket or build custom?

Any thoughts on LS3 dry? Any builds with LS3 with factory dry sump?
Cant seem to find any info.


Thanks for any help!
~JH

[AussieinNC]

I have to ask....Why dry sump? Wet sump LS engines work well in just about every iteration imaginable..without any oil systems issues....

Dry sump LS3's have a forged crank, and it is a little longer because dry sump oil pumps have two gerotors instead of one, as on wet sump LS3's.

Oil Pan
Dry sump oil pans are also different to accomodate oil flow to remote tank. And there are two drain plugs.
Very important that both drain plugs are removed when changing oil!
Most likely will not fit into a C-10 without major work on the cross member.

Oil Pump...
The Katech pump really is probably the best option in my opinion; it's what I use in all my dry sump engine builds unless it requires an external pump....not likely needed on a street car.

Reluctor...

Depends on the engine model...

Accessories....

Best way IMHO is to grab a full donor vehicle and sell remaining parts to recoup some of your outlay....

[LS short box]

Are you planning on road racing your truck? Is that why you want the dry sump? I would go over to LS1tech and ask over there. Another good source is Corvetteforums in the C6 or C7 sections.

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Originally Posted by AussieinNC

I have to ask....Why dry sump? Wet sump LS engines work well in just about every iteration imaginable..without any oil systems issues....

Dry sump LS3's have a forged crank, and it is a little longer because dry sump oil pumps have two gerotors instead of one, as on wet sump LS3's.

Oil Pan
Dry sump oil pans are also different to accomodate oil flow to remote tank. And there are two drain plugs.
Very important that both drain plugs are removed when changing oil!
Most likely will not fit into a C-10 without major work on the cross member.

Oil Pump...
The Katech pump really is probably the best option in my opinion; it's what I use in all my dry sump engine builds unless it requires an external pump....not likely needed on a street car.

Reluctor...

Depends on the engine model...

Accessories....

Best way IMHO is to grab a full donor vehicle and sell remaining parts to recoup some of your outlay....

Ok, Ill research the pan. I was hoping some peeps had done a dry LS motor and would have a host of pics. Typically dry pans are much more shallow than wet (oil in tanks) so I was hoping the pan would have significantly more clearance than a wet but I have no measurements to base this on.


Grabbing a doner vehicle with factory dry! I love the idea but could wait years to find a complete Z06/Z07 Vette and honestly would feel bad about pulling the motor if the car was salvageable.

I acknowledge the dry has no real practical benefit in my application and is a complete waste of the additional expense and time to implement. The ONLY reason is purely for the uniqueness and the a certain cool factor. Im not hell bent on the idea...but if I could make it work without being a huge pita Id like to try. Im OK with a small pita!


~JH

[AussieinNC]

Originally Posted by Jonny Hotnuts

Ok, Ill research the pan. I was hoping some peeps had done a dry LS motor and would have a host of pics. Typically dry pans are much more shallow than wet (oil in tanks) so I was hoping the pan would have significantly more clearance than a wet but I have no measurements to base this on.


Grabbing a doner vehicle with factory dry! I love the idea but could wait years to find a complete Z06/Z07 Vette and honestly would feel bad about pulling the motor if the car was salvageable.

I acknowledge the dry has no real practical benefit in my application and is a complete waste of the additional expense and time to implement. The ONLY reason is purely for the uniqueness and the a certain cool factor. Im not hell bent on the idea...but if I could make it work without being a huge pita Id like to try. Im OK with a small pita!


~JH

Here is a youtube video link showing the dry sump pan and required acccessories....make a note of the feed panel that bolts to the side of the sump....the size of the dry sump tank and the layout of the sump on the engine on the stand...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YzY8DhlnUw

PITA aside....you make anything fit in anywhere if you want to spend lots of dollars....there are very few dry sump projects in trucks due to costs etc....

Now if you wanted to put a dry sump into an earlier Corvette, that would be an interesting project.

[kipps]

I would not get too hung up on a dry sump pan. The transmission will be hanging as low as the normal Camaro pan does anyway.

I found a measurement saying that the 6l80, as used in the Camaro, has a centerline to pan depth of 9.2 inches. The Camaro ls3 oil pan(wet sump) has a crankshaft centerline to pan depth of 8 inches. Therefore, for a direct coupled transmission(unlike the Corvette, which moved the transmission to the rear), there's no clearance advantage to a dry sump, since the transmission hangs lower anyway.

Assuming you're installing a typical mid-mount transmission, just locate a complete ls3 and transmission combo out of a 2010-15 Camaro. Use the transmission that came with the engine, whether it's automatic or manual. Both are well-respected. To switch back and forth between an automatic and manual, or to go with an older automatic such as a 4l80, is just asking for wiring and tuning problems.

If you find a complete salvage Corvette, you might consider using that drivetrain in its entirety. You may give up bed space, but there's no reason the entire rear suspension and transaxle can't be moved over to the c10. Of course by that point, is it really a c10 anymore?

About the exhaust -- I've heard of folks using 2010-15 Camaro long-tubes on c10 trucks. From my limited experience with manifolds and cat downpipes, I'm guessing you'll need to avoid Tejas mounts in order to use the Camaro exhaust. The Tejas mounts move the engine a little higher in the chassis, and tilt the exhaust down to far.

Compare measurement "H" for the 6L80 in the following link to these two pics. Note that the 6L80 is 9.2 inches deep, the Camaro ls3 is about 8 inches deep, and the Corvette ls3 is 7 inches deep. All measured from the crankshaft line.

https://paceperformance.com/p-28983-...imensions.html

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Thanks for the info guys.

As much as I hate to say it, I have come to the conclusion a dry LS3 is not worth the zero benefit.

~JH

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Originally Posted by kipps

I would not get too hung up on a dry sump pan. The transmission will be hanging as low as the normal Camaro pan does anyway.

I found a measurement saying that the 6l80, as used in the Camaro, has a centerline to pan depth of 9.2 inches. The Camaro ls3 oil pan(wet sump) has a crankshaft centerline to pan depth of 8 inches. Therefore, for a direct coupled transmission(unlike the Corvette, which moved the transmission to the rear), there's no clearance advantage to a dry sump, since the transmission hangs lower anyway.

Assuming you're installing a typical mid-mount transmission, just locate a complete ls3 and transmission combo out of a 2010-15 Camaro. Use the transmission that came with the engine, whether it's automatic or manual. Both are well-respected. To switch back and forth between an automatic and manual, or to go with an older automatic such as a 4l80, is just asking for wiring and tuning problems.

If you find a complete salvage Corvette, you might consider using that drivetrain in its entirety. You may give up bed space, but there's no reason the entire rear suspension and transaxle can't be moved over to the c10. Of course by that point, is it really a c10 anymore?

About the exhaust -- I've heard of folks using 2010-15 Camaro long-tubes on c10 trucks. From my limited experience with manifolds and cat downpipes, I'm guessing you'll need to avoid Tejas mounts in order to use the Camaro exhaust. The Tejas mounts move the engine a little higher in the chassis, and tilt the exhaust down to far.

Compare measurement "H" for the 6L80 in the following link to these two pics. Note that the 6L80 is 9.2 inches deep, the Camaro ls3 is about 8 inches deep, and the Corvette ls3 is 7 inches deep. All measured from the crankshaft line.

https://paceperformance.com/p-28983-...imensions.html

Might be a bone head question but a buddy has a engine/trans combo from a 2011 Camaro ls3 with a TR6060 I can get for around $7K. I am unfamiliar with transmission options across the board with GM. Will the TR6060 be a good choice for the C10?

~JH

[mongocanfly]

7k isn't a bad price...I gave 6500 for my 2013 LS3/TR6060....
the only thing I can think of is youll have to relocate the shifter...but itll be fun to drive...if you like manual shifting

[kipps]

For a spirited c10 that doesn't do any towing or serious hauling, any stock Camaro engine/trans combo will be a good choice. The 2010-15 Camaros came with the 6l80 paired to the L99 engine(same as a LS3, but with VVT and AFM), or with the tr6060 paired to the LS3. Both combos are highly regarded.

Like Mongocanfly mentioned, the shifter position will likely need some research on the tr6060. It's mounted at the extreme rear of the transmission, which will be somewhere under the seat of a c10.

Rear axle ratios will be important. A good starting point, is to compare your c10 to a Camaro. Google says the weights of your truck and a gen-5 Camaro are 3500 and 3750 respectively. So your truck is slightly lighter than the Camaro. It appears the manual trans Camaros came with 3.45 gears, and folks frequently upgrade to 3.73 or 3.91 gears. Anywhere in that range should put you in the running.

[Jonny Hotnuts]

Thanks all for the help!

Originally Posted by kipps

\
Like Mongocanfly mentioned, the shifter position will likely need some research on the tr6060. It's mounted at the extreme rear of the transmission, which will be somewhere under the seat of a c10.

I have done a fair amount of reading looking for shifter relocation setups for the TR6060.

I read in another thread 'all you need is a $200 shifter relocation kit' but didnt contain any info on what kit or where to find it.

Questions:

So is there a 'go to' kit that people are using? Where do I find it?
Does these kits move the shifter far enough forward that it is not weird (works but still too far aft)? Where does the shifter come through?



~JH

[mongocanfly]

sikky and silversport are the 2 I'm looking at for mine...I don't know where the ($200) shifter is..these are considerable more...
they make a few different lengths..shifter location will depend on where the engine/trans sits , and which relocator is used
ive seen some homemade ones also

[57taskforce]

All this talk of cannibalizing 5th gens is giving me anxiety!
The LS3 and the L99 are very close brothers but not the same, aside from AFM and VVT the L99 also has different pistons with Valve reliefs that lower the compression slightly. Also the 821 heads in the LS3 are the same physical casting as the L99 but have Lighter sodium filled valves that support more Rpms. The LS3 has a higher factory redline at 6600 vs. 6200 in the L99. The L99 will have 823 heads. Keep in mind it’s critical to get a healthy engine, the aluminum 6.2’s have very very little over bore. .020 is really pushing it. There are salvage sleeves available but it’s normally cheaper/better to get a new replacement block. If you get an L99 your gonna want to delete the AFM before you do the swap. The AFM lifters are a widely known fail point. Some reading on Camaro5.com will help you understand the animals your dealing with here. That’s nearly an extra $1,000 on top of normal cam swap prices. VVt is in the eye of the beholder. When I cam my car, I’m going to likely delete it because I’m building it for an LSA supercharger, so vvt really won’t be necessary. For an NA build I would keep vvt. The L99 is 400 hp in stock form and the LS3 is 426. The vvt is what allows the L99 to run neck and neck with the LS3 speed wise while overcoming less HP and more driveline losses thru the 6L80E. The 5th Gen cars love 3:91’s plain and simple.(your C10 will as well assuming similar tire diameters) Don’t stop short at 3:73. 4:11 is an option for us but the the 4:11s in the Camaro irs aren’t as strong as the 3:91 is so most guys steer clear. 6l80 In Camaro form is good to about 650-700 whp without sticky tires. The 6l90 in the ZL1 is easily good to 950 WHP in stock form. I’ve seen guys run 700+ whp thru the 6060 without issue. The earlier 6060’s Have some Syncro issues but not on a huge scale. If you end up with an 6l80 or 6l90 Jannetty racing makes a great bolt on tranny dipstick kit. The autos don’t have a dipstick from the factory. It’s a good idea to replace the LS3 oil pump with a melling high volume, the stock pump is another known fail point. The L99 uses a different Factory high Volume pump to run the vlom. The L99 and LS3 both are stupid strong engines, lots of them have been pushed to 800+ hp with very nice reliability, it’s as much in the tune as it is the parts that you throw at it though. I prefer to see the 5th gens un cannibalized but I do realize it’s much better to let the organs live on after death!
As much as I love my old trucks, this one is my real baby.

Another good avenue to look for in swap motors is the L96, L92, and LY6. All will have the bad ass 823 heads., the 96 and LY6 are Iron 6.0’s that are plain tough as nails. The 92 is pretty similar to the LS3 and L99 in that it’s an aluminum 6.2.
Hope this helps muddy the water some!

[Jonny Hotnuts]

As mentioned by Mr 57 I have also been looking at a l92. A friend (same friend with the LS3) has one in very good shape and its cheap but doesnt have a harness, ecu or peddle.
I dont even know what vehicle it was removed from.

Because I can get it cheap I was planning on putting some aftermarket heads on it and an oil pump and it would still be less than the ls3. I will likely get a tr6060 or t56

Is getting an ecu, harness and peddle going to be a prob if I go this option?

~JH

[mongocanfly]

The L92 was only made about 2yrs..07-08...
Even stock it's a 400hp engine..it was in the higher end SUVs and trucks..
The ecm,tac, and peddle will need to match with the throttle
If you go aaftermarket harness itll need to match it all..injectors peddle,ecm..etc..

[kipps]

This L92 is a Gen-IV truck motor with VVT, and those never came with a manual trans. Tuning could be interesting, depending on what features you plan to keep.

I'm trying this myself. I'm using a 2010 5.3 with VVT, and am pairing it with a nv4500. I'll be driving an electronic speedometer through the ECM. I also want to keep my options open for using factory cruise control and smart charging through the BCM(body control module). The original LMG engine had AFM, but I deleted that using the camshaft from a LMF. I have the donor Tahoe BCM on hand, and have also purchased the BCM from a manual trans 2014 Camaro.

I've been talking with some advanced tuners, and their recommendation follows --

Using HPtuners and a bench harness, pull the LMG tune and store it for future reference.
Send the ECM and the bench harness to my brother, who's a GM tech, to have it reflashed. I'll give him the VIN of the 2014 Camaro, to use when reflashing.
Scan and License to the 2014 Camaro tune.
Locate a LMF(chevy express van) tune, and use info from that to convert the Camaro tune to run my 5.3 engine.
Once the engine is running correctly, wire in the BCM and try to get that to interface correctly.

In short, if you're not concerned about VVT, an electronic speedometer, or cruise control, just do it without worrying about it. But if you want to retain any of those parts, contact the guy who will be tuning the thing, and make sure he's okay with the idea.

[LS short box]

I've done a couple L92 swaps. A 2010 and a 2012. I like running the LS3 intake and 2002 Fbody front accessories. The L92 out of trucks doesn't have AFM just vvt at least mine were configured that way. I deleted the vvt. Added the old style timing chain guides in lieu of the spring loaded type. Aftermarket timing chain. Added a 225I/230E .610 lift 114 c/l cam. On a mild 91 octane tune it did 420 hp at the rear wheels. Drove great no bucking or surging. There has been some issues with the afm lifters.